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kraftiekortie
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10 Sep 2014, 10:42 am

As an example of virtuous dialogue, one should read the introductory chapter of St. Thomas More's "Utopia." No name-calling there!

Please.....just because the guy's a Catholic doesn't mean I'm religious. I'm an agnostic/atheist. There are applicable moral concepts which arise from religion, though.



aghogday
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10 Sep 2014, 11:01 am

GGPViper wrote:
aghogday wrote:
And by the way if anyone thinks I'm doing this as self promotion, you will not find any commercial interests on my blogs, I am already financial independent; money means absolutely nothing for me, other than a tool, and I want it to stay that way.

You don't need to have a commercial interest to be a self-promoter.

Posting a lengthy post about how magnificently strong, smart and charming you apparently are in a thread about something else entirely will do the trick...


Apparently you don't understand the context; what makes it a natural miracle is I was totally and permanently disabled as a shut in, in my home for five long years, just a year ago.

In other words the evidence that I am amazingly strong now, with amazing skills is evidence of a natural human miracle with that context given.

The usual reason another person could possibly be bothered by it, is if they are jealous, given the full context of it.

I only want people to share the bliss and potential I have realized in my life now.

The only way to attempt to do that, to provide the hope, is to provide the documented incontrovertible evidence.

It's the way it's always been done.

There is no reason for me to do that, other than love.

Why in the world do you think I would be here, if it wasn't for that.

What am I getting out of this, selfishly, as I could easy go out and dominate some women tonight, if that was my real goal in life.

But no it's not, to not share my success in hopes someone else could have it, would truly be the epitome of selfishness.

But hell no dude, that's not me, although I provide the evidence if there was anything else but true love and humility in my character I would have never accomplished what I have as that is the true source of all my success and accomplishment in life, so yes, what the real man Yeshua aka Jesus teaches per the golden rule rings true. The golden rule does apply, here friend and it's precisely on topic, if you truly do, understand the topic at hand.

And by the way, I said nothing about being charming or smart in my post; those are your words not mine.

The most important intelligence is emotional intelligence in my opinion, and that has always been a challenge for me, and of course the charming part is included in that type of intelligence as well.

But if the truth must be told, most people are more attracted to positive people than negative people, no matter what their intelligence on standard IQ tests are or even their ability to say so called smooth things to other folks.

And that truly more than anything is what I am in real life, positive, almost miraculously positive and always up in most people's worded perceptions, who do meet me in real life now.


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Last edited by aghogday on 10 Sep 2014, 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

naturalplastic
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10 Sep 2014, 11:35 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Okay.

Lets compromise.

Keep on teaching evolution in schools because science has disproven the account in Genesis.

But we should START teaching school kids that each and every bicycle rider is constantly followed by invisible guardian angel to keep them upright at all times because science has yet to disprove that.

Works for me.



My goodness you are a wonder, truly you are. I have never come across a walking talking logical fallacy before.


Well...

I was addressing Yournamehere, about his "science of the gaps" idea.

Instead of doing what everyone else was doing, which was to get red in the face and scream at him to take science courses, I just thought that we all should ...ya know....just GO with his idea, and see where it leads.

Where it leads is to my modest proposal.

According to him "how a bicycle works [by which he probably means "how a bike stays upright"- not how the pedal and chains propel the bike]" is a 'gap' in scientific knowledge. So lets go with his idea that we cant let science have that because its a 'gap', and give it to...well...to NON science. Or to 'God', or whatever. Let each side have the gaps in the other. Or thats what Yournamehere seems to be implying.

Since religion lost the origin of species a long time ago, and isnt likely to get it back any time soon science would have to keep that. But we could let the religious have bicycles! Teach that God (or his angel minions) hold bike riders upright. Ya know- just divee things up by who's gap is who's!



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10 Sep 2014, 11:51 am

yournamehere wrote:

I'm going to throw one out here again for fun. It's reads to me like this scientific meathod cannot work if it has nothing to go by. Ultimately ruling out things that can in fact be real. I am relating to simple things that I always use as a contradiction of science. Like dreaming. The use, and practice of it has absolutely no scientific value, because their is nothing to back it up with the exception of some squiggles on some electrical equipment, and what have you. Yet it has substance. It does exist. It is real. Perhaps even more real than science could ever realize. Denouncing this fact. Can deteriorate the very existence of human evolution, and what we know about the mind, how it functions, why, and perhaps even a broader spectrum of the cosmos.


Dreams aren't real bro.



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10 Sep 2014, 1:11 pm

Cornflake wrote:
yournamehere wrote:
God is a theory. Because I think so. I am determined to find a practicle use for it. How is that any different than a scientific one?
It isn't very different, yet - you're simply on step one. What happens next is the important part.

I saw the following first posted here by Fnord but, not to discredit his work in writing it, it's still just a stepwise summary of well-established working principles which can be found described in many other places - and in may other posts here on WP.

The Scientific Method:

1) Develop a new hypothesis. A hypothesis is merely an idea that is usually based on passive observations of natural events. An idea does not have to be supported, but if it does not, then it remains only an idea.
2) Search for related data, which may be found in the results of previous research, whether or not the results of the previous research actually support the previous research.
3) If existing data does not support the hypothesis, then return to step 1.
4) Create a new supporting theory. A theory attempts to explain the hypothesis in a cause-and-effect manner. Never propose a theory that is not supported by available evidence.
5) Perform experiments to test the theory. Experiments must be appropriate to the proposed theory, and must be both repeatable and verifiable.
6) If the experimental results do not support the theory, then return to step 4.
7) Record findings and submit to peer-review process. A peer group is composed of professional researchers in the field of study that the theory addresses. The peer group will first examine the initial data for factual errors, then the theory for errors of reasoning, and then perform the same experiments under the same conditions to validate or invalidate the theory.
8) If the peer-review process produces conflicting evidence, then return to step 4.
9) At this point, the theory becomes a scientific principle.
10) Publish the results.

Compare and contrast with -
The Fantasy Method for Promoting Delusion and Ignorance:

1) Form an opinion. This opinion does not have to be founded on anything other than dreams, fantasies, fears, hallucinations, ignorance, imagination, legends, myths, prejudices, speculation, superstitions, suspicions, or wishful thinking.
2) Search for supporting data. If any data conflicts with the original opinion then discredit, distort, or ignore the conflicting data. If the conflicting facts or opinions can not be adequately discredited, then the person(s) presenting the conflicting facts or opinions (the ?critic? or ?skeptic?) must be discredited.
3) Publish the opinion.
4) If any critic or skeptic comes forward with facts or opinions that conflict with the original opinion then discredit, distort, or ignore the conflicting facts, while simultaneously discrediting the person(s) presenting the conflicting facts or opinions.
5) Expand the original opinion into unrelated fields of interest.
6) Repeat from Step 2.

Note that while the Scientific Method is self-correcting and tends to discard and ignore invalid ideas, the Fantasy method does not allow for correction, and thus actually promotes ideas that have no validity in the real world. The Scientific Method is used by those who would seek to determine The Truth about life, the universe, and everything, while those who use the Fantasy Method seek only to gain notoriety through the dissemination and repetition of urban myths, conspiracy theories, and superstitious nonsense.


I have a personal problem with this way of thinking. here is something just for fun again. I detest the fact that dreams, and hallucinations are a fantasy. They are in fact very real. Science not having any basis on most of its aspects due to the fact that the actual event cannot be duplicated. it has no scientific substance, or mass. Furthermore I would like to add that fantasy, imagination, and wishful thinking is in fact a very useful tool in the human mind. Making all of these aspects very practical in many circumstances. The delusions, and ignorance you refer to is a matter of interpretation. Most of science has fundamental roots because of these aspects.



yournamehere
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10 Sep 2014, 1:22 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
aghogday wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Okay.

Lets compromise.

Keep on teaching evolution in schools because science has disproven the account in Genesis.

But we should START teaching school kids that each and every bicycle rider is constantly followed by invisible guardian angel to keep them upright at all times because science has yet to disprove that.

Works for me.



My goodness you are a wonder, truly you are. I have never come across a walking talking logical fallacy before.


That I can picture him slapping himself on the back in smug self-satisfaction after hitting the submit button further adds to my concerns for the future of our species.


Three potential new things learned here:.


In reality there is one thing to be learned here, I f****d up!! !! !! Sorry naturalplastic I was in a hurry and for some reason thought you were yournamehere. big oooops. In my defense what you wrote in jest, could easily be a serious, yet idiotic posit from ynh


Ooh? So I am a target? :P



yournamehere
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10 Sep 2014, 1:25 pm

aghogday wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
aghogday wrote:
And by the way if anyone thinks I'm doing this as self promotion, you will not find any commercial interests on my blogs, I am already financial independent; money means absolutely nothing for me, other than a tool, and I want it to stay that way.

You don't need to have a commercial interest to be a self-promoter.

Posting a lengthy post about how magnificently strong, smart and charming you apparently are in a thread about something else entirely will do the trick...


Apparently you don't understand the context; what makes it a natural miracle is I was totally and permanently disabled as a shut in, in my home for five long years, just a year ago.

In other words the evidence that I am amazingly strong now, with amazing skills is evidence of a natural human miracle with that context given.

The usual reason another person could possibly be bothered by it, is if they are jealous, given the full context of it.

I only want people to share the bliss and potential I have realized in my life now.

The only way to attempt to do that, to provide the hope, is to provide the documented incontrovertible evidence.

It's the way it's always been done.

There is no reason for me to do that, other than love.

Why in the world do you think I would be here, if it wasn't for that.

What am I getting out of this, selfishly, as I could easy go out and dominate some women tonight, if that was my real goal in life.

But no it's not, to not share my success in hopes someone else could have it, would truly be the epitome of selfishness.

But hell no dude, that's not me, although I provide the evidence if there was anything else but true love and humility in my character I would have never accomplished what I have as that is the true source of all my success and accomplishment in life, so yes, what the real man Yeshua aka Jesus teaches per the golden rule rings true. The golden rule does apply, here friend and it's precisely on topic, if you truly do, understand the topic at hand.

And by the way, I said nothing about being charming or smart in my post; those are your words not mine.

The most important intelligence is emotional intelligence in my opinion, and that has always been a challenge for me, and of course the charming part is included in that type of intelligence as well.

But if the truth must be told, most people are more attracted to positive people than negative people, no matter what their intelligence on standard IQ tests are or even their ability to say so called smooth things to other folks.

And that truly more than anything is what I am in real life, positive, almost miraculously positive and always up in most people's worded perceptions, who do meet me in real life now.


Bruce Lee did that too. He was told he would never walk again.



yournamehere
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10 Sep 2014, 1:26 pm

AspE wrote:
yournamehere wrote:

I'm going to throw one out here again for fun. It's reads to me like this scientific meathod cannot work if it has nothing to go by. Ultimately ruling out things that can in fact be real. I am relating to simple things that I always use as a contradiction of science. Like dreaming. The use, and practice of it has absolutely no scientific value, because their is nothing to back it up with the exception of some squiggles on some electrical equipment, and what have you. Yet it has substance. It does exist. It is real. Perhaps even more real than science could ever realize. Denouncing this fact. Can deteriorate the very existence of human evolution, and what we know about the mind, how it functions, why, and perhaps even a broader spectrum of the cosmos.


Dreams aren't real bro.


Well than go, and don't have one???



naturalplastic
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10 Sep 2014, 1:37 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
aghogday wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Okay.

Lets compromise.

Keep on teaching evolution in schools because science has disproven the account in Genesis.

But we should START teaching school kids that each and every bicycle rider is constantly followed by invisible guardian angel to keep them upright at all times because science has yet to disprove that.

Works for me.



My goodness you are a wonder, truly you are. I have never come across a walking talking logical fallacy before.


That I can picture him slapping himself on the back in smug self-satisfaction after hitting the submit button further adds to my concerns for the future of our species.


Three potential new things learned here:.


In reality there is one thing to be learned here, I f****d up!! !! !! Sorry naturalplastic I was in a hurry and for some reason thought you were yournamehere. big oooops. In my defense what you wrote in jest, could easily be a serious, yet idiotic posit from ynh


Apology accepted!

LMFAO!

I guess that would be another example of "Poe's Law".



aghogday
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10 Sep 2014, 2:55 pm

yournamehere wrote:
aghogday wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
aghogday wrote:
And by the way if anyone thinks I'm doing this as self promotion, you will not find any commercial interests on my blogs, I am already financial independent; money means absolutely nothing for me, other than a tool, and I want it to stay that way.

You don't need to have a commercial interest to be a self-promoter.

Posting a lengthy post about how magnificently strong, smart and charming you apparently are in a thread about something else entirely will do the trick...


Apparently you don't understand the context; what makes it a natural miracle is I was totally and permanently disabled as a shut in, in my home for five long years, just a year ago.

In other words the evidence that I am amazingly strong now, with amazing skills is evidence of a natural human miracle with that context given.

The usual reason another person could possibly be bothered by it, is if they are jealous, given the full context of it.

I only want people to share the bliss and potential I have realized in my life now.

The only way to attempt to do that, to provide the hope, is to provide the documented incontrovertible evidence.

It's the way it's always been done.

There is no reason for me to do that, other than love.

Why in the world do you think I would be here, if it wasn't for that.

What am I getting out of this, selfishly, as I could easy go out and dominate some women tonight, if that was my real goal in life.

But no it's not, to not share my success in hopes someone else could have it, would truly be the epitome of selfishness.

But hell no dude, that's not me, although I provide the evidence if there was anything else but true love and humility in my character I would have never accomplished what I have as that is the true source of all my success and accomplishment in life, so yes, what the real man Yeshua aka Jesus teaches per the golden rule rings true. The golden rule does apply, here friend and it's precisely on topic, if you truly do, understand the topic at hand.

And by the way, I said nothing about being charming or smart in my post; those are your words not mine.

The most important intelligence is emotional intelligence in my opinion, and that has always been a challenge for me, and of course the charming part is included in that type of intelligence as well.

But if the truth must be told, most people are more attracted to positive people than negative people, no matter what their intelligence on standard IQ tests are or even their ability to say so called smooth things to other folks.

And that truly more than anything is what I am in real life, positive, almost miraculously positive and always up in most people's worded perceptions, who do meet me in real life now.


Bruce Lee did that too. He was told he would never walk again.


Yes, and it's true the doctor gave me zero chance of recovery that i still have documented in my official medical records, if anyone doesn't believe that either..:)


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adifferentname
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10 Sep 2014, 5:02 pm

yournamehere wrote:
I have a personal problem with this way of thinking. here is something just for fun again. I detest the fact that dreams, and hallucinations are a fantasy.


Why do you view fantasies as negative?

Quote:
They are in fact very real.


Who claimed otherwise?

Quote:
Science not having any basis on most of its aspects due to the fact that the actual event cannot be duplicated. it has no scientific substance, or mass.


We still don't fully understand what causes the sensory perceptions within a dream, but scientists have been studying the human brain in repose for many years. That's the whole point of science - trying to understand the unknown.

It has long been known that dreams coincide with neurological activity during REM sleep. Your suggestion that dreams have no substance or mass is unsupported.

Recently, a group of Japanese scientists claim to have built a "dream recording machine". Although the machine is rudimentary and apparently far from being 100% accurate, it suggests the opposite of what you're claiming, that the event can in fact be duplicated.

Quote:
Furthermore I would like to add that fantasy, imagination, and wishful thinking is in fact a very useful tool in the human mind. Making all of these aspects very practical in many circumstances. The delusions, and ignorance you refer to is a matter of interpretation. Most of science has fundamental roots because of these aspects.


What exactly do you believe is meant by "develop a new hypothesis"? Imagination and fantasy form the starting point of the scientific method. Your "personal problem" with that "way of thinking" is diametrically opposed to your reason for having the problem in the first place.



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10 Sep 2014, 6:37 pm

yournamehere wrote:

I'm going to make you think more about your beliefs in order to write alot more stuff, and prove your unquestionable genius intelligence about all these great subjects you know do much about, and ask this: God is a theory. Because I think so. I am determined to find a practicle use for it. How is that any different than a scientific one?


You know rather than making dumb sarcastic comments which only serve to highlight just how little you know about a subject, I would have thought you would be better served listening to the people who have posted in response to your thoughts. As to my understanding of these subjects, I know very little, yet it would appear I know a great deal more than you, does that make me a person of "unquestionable genius" i would hope not.

Here is a suggestion check out the differences between conjecture, hypothesis, and theory from a scientific perspective. Better still read Cornflakes excellent post again and again and again, eventually some of what he said should begin to penetrate.


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11 Sep 2014, 7:34 am

yournamehere wrote:
I detest the fact that dreams, and hallucinations are a fantasy. They are in fact very real. Science not having any basis on most of its aspects due to the fact that the actual event cannot be duplicated. it has no scientific substance, or mass.


Dreams are the transfer of energy (which is essentially mass in a different form) between neurons in the brain. This has been proven and measured in many studies. So science definitely agrees that dreams are real; it is also a starting point for much more research.

yournamehere wrote:
Furthermore I would like to add that fantasy, imagination, and wishful thinking is in fact a very useful tool in the human mind.


Of course they can be. They can also be very detrimental.

yournamehere wrote:
Most of science has fundamental roots because of these aspects.


I think the root of the problems most have with your statements is that you begin with, "let's think about something," which is also how the Scientific Method begins, but just stop there without bothering to try to go further.


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11 Sep 2014, 8:14 am

Do humans have a "sixth sense" (i.e., you can sense someone looking at you despite not being directly aware of it)? You turn around and look right at the person as if you had a supernatural sense that this person was staring at you. I notice this. My brain is getting information I am not conscious of and it does not fit the five senses.

How do you use science to verify the "supernatural"?



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11 Sep 2014, 8:19 am

adifferentname wrote:
yournamehere wrote:
I have a personal problem with this way of thinking. here is something just for fun again. I detest the fact that dreams, and hallucinations are a fantasy.


Why do you view fantasies as negative?

Quote:
They are in fact very real.


Who claimed otherwise?

Quote:
Science not having any basis on most of its aspects due to the fact that the actual event cannot be duplicated. it has no scientific substance, or mass.


We still don't fully understand what causes the sensory perceptions within a dream, but scientists have been studying the human brain in repose for many years. That's the whole point of science - trying to understand the unknown.

It has long been known that dreams coincide with neurological activity during REM sleep. Your suggestion that dreams have no substance or mass is unsupported.

Recently, a group of Japanese scientists claim to have built a "dream recording machine". Although the machine is rudimentary and apparently far from being 100% accurate, it suggests the opposite of what you're claiming, that the event can in fact be duplicated.

Quote:
Furthermore I would like to add that fantasy, imagination, and wishful thinking is in fact a very useful tool in the human mind. Making all of these aspects very practical in many circumstances. The delusions, and ignorance you refer to is a matter of interpretation. Most of science has fundamental roots because of these aspects.


What exactly do you believe is meant by "develop a new hypothesis"? Imagination and fantasy form the starting point of the scientific method. Your "personal problem" with that "way of thinking" is diametrically opposed to your reason for having the problem in the first place.


I'm sorry. Something must have been misinterpreted. I do not view fantasy as negative. It can be practical.

All the other things you are asking me is quite confusing to me. I must think differently, or something? The whole dream recording thing is a neat idea, however it does not interperate actual feelings, intent, reason, or the connection being made within yourself in relation to the outside world. What is going on in your dreams is more than just a movie. Another statement that people can go gung ho about I'm sure.

As far as your last question? I guess I don't see a problem? I don't see me having a problem? I may not know how to answer the rest of your last question proplerly, because it may be misinterpreted. My "way of thinking" is like the god spot theory. Autistics, and many NT people may have underdeveloped parts of the mind. Some parts being very much stronger than others. There are people here right now reading this, and writing back to me, who think the same way, possibly even in the form of mobbing, perhaps even adding a personality disorder into the mix to make things worse, who are very "right side" thinkers. I see it time, and time again on this site. Very scientific, extremely practicle people. However there are other people on here who do have other views, and actually think differently. People who naturally think they are part of a whole, and outside themselves. Part of something greater than themselves. This is how my mind works. Naturally seeing god as an answer. For us, it is. There are people here who want to crush the god theory. The "god spot". Kicking them to the curb. Autistics! People who come here for support! Spreading the word, because it is a natural thing for them! Personality disordered people, and others on here, smashing them to pieces, with little to no compassion. It is quite sickening. I have said many things on this post, not only as a way to try to interpret my way of thinking, and my reality, but also in order for people to read this post as an example of the sickness that is going on in this autism website. Even a moderator has his hands in it. He enjoys it. If he was an actual Buddhist like he claims to be, someone would tell him to shave his head, and shutup for a year. My way of thinking makes me who and what I am. It is not a choice. God is the answer for me. Without this way of thinking, I would be a tomato. Instead, I have accomplished many things, and have done more than thousands of things I never would have thought were possible. Because I imagine it. Because I believe. My thoughts and feelings come together, and go out. for me, it is what it is, and I don't expect you to understand. In fact, I forgive you, because some cannot. I have just as much a difficult time trying to interpret this totalitarian view of everything being scientific, and the atheism, no god theory, being practical and real. However, I do understand there is a difference. Like night, and lite. If it actually worked in harmony there would be a day. I need to stay away from this site for a while.

I have no intention to answer anymore questions, or have people try and dismember me, to leave me in pieces all over the floor. like some here do, and get away with alot more than they should. It did not work anyways. I am stronger. I realize even more. End of game. I am out. Have a great day.


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Bruce Lee.


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11 Sep 2014, 8:23 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
Do humans have a "sixth sense" (i.e., you can sense someone looking at you despite not being directly aware of it)? You turn around and look right at the person as if you had a supernatural sense that this person was staring at you. I notice this. My brain is getting information I am not conscious of and it does not fit the five senses.

How do you use science to verify the "supernatural"?


It is not so much supernatural as the fact that your brain processes a massive amount of information about your surroundings without bothering to consult the part of your brain that does the thinking. Everything a person does affects their surroundings, and it is quite likely that your brain has figured out how the subtle differences come about. Many things that are "supernatural" already have scientific explanations and more are explained all the time. Assuming that we haven't figured out the why is the same as supernatural is problematic.

For example, we now can explain (from a neuroscience stand point) much of the near death experience accounts. A large portion has to do with lack of oxygen to the brain and what basically is the equivalent of a neurological reboot. That doesn't make the experience feel any less real to those who experienced it, but it also removes the supernatural aspect of it.


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