God and Science are not mutually exlcusive......

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Homoeopathy, eugenics, and unquantifiable bucket-loads on autism are the first which spring to mind. Or forget that; have you ever picked up a newspaper and read the health pages in there? These all take place within the scientific community. The former few are largely rejected today but arose from the scientific context and still maintain proponents within that language. This is in much the same way that religions reject [heresies]. In the end it's not the arguments of either which determine the truth, but whoever happens to have the most money.



Do you really think that if that were true you would be the first to notice it, in over two thousand years of Christian history?



You're judging a book from over a thousand years ago by the language of truth standards today. It's as if I were speak Arabic and you were speaking Dutch.



I'm glad to see you change your stance, but it seems quite ignorant to call the Talmud an unreliable source. I fail to see how the work of an Anglican priest are irrelevant either. Are you rejecting these because they challenge your preconceived ideas?

You're looking at it far to teleologically.



If you mean that in a pseudo-Foucauldian sense then I agree completely.

Last edited by YourMum on 17 Sep 2014, 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Oh right, so that's why the study of maths and science are seen as so important in (non-Wahhabi/Deobandi) madrasahs, and explains why the Roman Catholic church is quite possibly the most important scientific institution of all time.

Right, they were considered before and now rejected, and few supporters still exist, I don't see a problem there.


Actually I would have thought that YOU would not notice


I am a former christian, so I pretty much have a good idea of christian faith, and again, I don't mean things like crisis of faith. Faith itself has no place for uncertainty in it, is incompatible, nothing more to say.

Interestingly, different minds make different ways of looking at reality. Some folks see more of subjective truths in the inner life that makes the outer life real and some folks see more of the objective truths that make the outer world be an illusory inner world, too. Yes, that's an oversimplification but nature vs. nurture is always a balance of human being, and is very much determined by the culture/environment a human being grows up in.

The more culture there is more often the less time there is to look within with instinct to find the greater truths of life, intuitively.

Part of why folks who live in poverty wherever one looks in the world may have brighter eyes and more depth of emotional life is they live more in an internal world of instinct, empathy, intuition, and love, than one of mechanical cognition to determine all the complex contingencies of societal norm to even make it through life to step one of getting a mate and finding some dam way to get subsistence, when the parental coverage, if you will, runs out.

Religion addresses the subconscious archetypes of mind and emotion that science is finally now just catching to find some understanding for. Science also is just now even coming to a common understanding in scientific terms of how human empathy works and yes breaks too.

There are many metaphors and parables of religion used to defeat the literally thinking mind. One can attempt to understand that any heresy of moving away from the literal ways of social norm in cultures of the past and unfortunately many cultures of today is a punishment that can range from flogging to death.

Poetry in all its forms is how historical folks with deeper minds delving into the internal instinctual mind relate truths to help others who have the ability to think this way have a better life.

The human attributes of relative free will, faith, belief, hope, and yes unconditional love are real human attributes and powerful ones that can and have changed the world many times before and will always do this as long as human beings are human beings, and perhaps not manipulated by genetics to remove their metaphorical soul from their body, or in an environmental way to remove their metaphorical souls from their body, through a way of life in culture and or fundamentalist religion through limited mechanical cognition thinking that basically kills the instinctual 'soul' of human being.

There are literally thinking Scientists and fundamentalist religious folks in the world, who seem very similar to me, except they follow the rules of different text and culture. However, both can be fundamentalist in effect and merit, as they leave out a huge part of human being, per the subjective emotional part that is the true 'emoter' or motivator of all of human being productivity and creativity.

And for fundamentalist religious folks who repress human sexuality, this does the similar as they walk down the aisles of Wal-Mart with little to no spark or skip in their step, as sexual freedom and libido is a great source of human productivity and creativity too.

So in short science shows the mistakes of religion and religion shows the mistakes of science.

Most people don't do leisure reading for science abstracts as they are devoid of human emotions and in effect boring as hell for the human learning process as emotions are core to human beings learning, whether through humor or whatever device of emotion may be used.

Science is good at premises and determining what works and what does not work, but it horrible so far at basic human reciprocal communication that does require emotion to work well for the populace as a whole.

Part of the issue there is inherent in the folks who are doing the science obviously as a mind spent mostly in mechanical cognition rather than social or empathizing cognition becomes what it is fed.

Nature vs. Nurture; there is no escaping Mother Nature or cultural nurture. However, there are many ways to understand it, overcome the functional disabilities it creates in humanity, and have the best full balanced human being with both emotion and logic well balanced.

And yes, that requires a great deal of time, effort, and focus to find the success that makes a balanced life true and very enjoyable every now of now.

But to either discount the deep human emotional archetypal meanings of religions in general or the scientific method of science is a mistake in my opinion and one or the other is the source of great human suffering in my opinion, too.

Life has always been about the balance of the metaphor of so-called Yin and Yang; that is human nature and will never change as long as human beings are human beings.

Science is just now getting around to touching the surface of the archetypes of human sub-conscious mind of emotion.

For me science only proves the most meaningful metaphors of religion that ring true, from the ancient sacred texts attributed to the man Yeshua aka Jesus, and many other philosophers, like 'As above so below', and looking within to find the reflection of ALL IT IS aka GOD of nature, everywhere one looks AND FEELS.

Some of the most important lessons to date, are rarely learned in school; the most vital elements too, of simply being a successful well balanced human being per logic and emotion.

Just because a person is not able to understand a parable or poetry, in general, does not mean there is not great truth in gems of emotional human archetypal knowledge housed within. The journey to understand it for those who cannot can indeed be a very long journey, if ever reached in one lifetime, I know for sure, from a personal perspective now, too.

Even reading more than 140 characters is a challenge for some, who yes definitely do have the potential to read much more, and understand more too, if one finds a way to escape the illusions and reality of culture now.

Actually, it's my understanding that science has been used to investigate such things, but only pseudoscience has published support for the unproven. Oh... that and media who love a story. Who is it that said, "Never let the facts get in the way of a good story." ?

As a Christian, I always struggled with that one. Faith the size of a mustard seed that can move a mountain. There were times I struggled with detail, but I firmly believed. Yet I never moved a mountain, real or metaphorical.

And now as a non-believer, I see that faith is held over people's heads as the 'you don't want to miss out on heaven' card (or worse - the 'you'll end up in hell' card for some). That was one hurdle I crossed on my way to unbelief.

Those guys that imprisoned Galileo? Right.

Hey now, they apologized about that. No need rubbing it in anymore

Power, wealth, education, and religion have often gone hand in hand. It still does to a great extent. A lot of the 'great thinkers' took on the religious labels surrounding them by default, because there weren't that many other options, so their thoughts oftentimes had a religious tint to them. We're at a point where saying 'religion is misguided/wrong' is an option, and a safe one at that (well, in the West at least. There are still people around the world getting killed for being atheists). I think as time goes on, we'll see that the percentage of atheism/agnosticism among 'great thinkers' will go up, up, up (as it has been). Though, there will still be religious presence among such great thinkers for a long time to come, as certain religious groups still have the best access to best education in the world.

Last edited by Spectacles on 19 Sep 2014, 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Interesting, as I also had a difficult time with this, when faith is associated as believing something without tangible evidence. For example, the belief in a reward after life for believing in and repeating a few words in a text of book about a man who lived around 2000 years ago to believe that he is an only begotten son of GOD, otherwise known as John 3:16.

To put it bluntly I almost immediately smelled BS, even at around age 5 when Santa Claus is still coming to town for me and GOD an invisible omnipotent force is equaled with a bearded long haired photo of a man on my bedroom wall that looked like the hippies that folks made fun of in my fundamentalist deep south good ole Southern Baptist religion town.

If it did not make sense to me, the 'heard' of herd did not overrule my logic; simple and true, even at age 5.

However, the interesting thing when I finally left high school and entered college and receive my first taste of Philosophy 101 and Comparative Religions is that there are patterned elements of truth in almost all religions. That is when the intuitive part of my mind wakes up with the logical part of my mind and I first experience a sense of awakening or what some folks call enlightenment and experience a real sense of new human freedom as I am freed of the illusions of culture; yes, Philosophy 101 and Comparative religions helped to set me free. And the greatest religious elements that ring true for me then are in the TAO and Native American Indian religions.

The key is both religions look to nature and not to culture for the answers from within. With elements of the New Testament it is clear to me that some of the words of the reported prophet Jesus aka Yeshua then rang true too. And just this year, I finally get my hands on the Gospel of Thomas and I find that those reported words are of a man not much different than a Yogi or Classical Pantheist.

The bottom line I think is not much different than Jack London's 'Call of the Wild'. We set ourselves apart from other undomesticated animals as something special. Although the domestication makes human social animals suitable for civilization it takes away the true undomesticated animal powers that can be ours as human beings when the still present instinctual and intuitive mind is cultivated and used for real animal gain in internal power of fearlessness instead of the expectations and limitations that domesticated humans and culture place on each other to make us much weaker at core of human being that what we can be.

As stated earlier in my posts I find GOD on the beach in the Wild and the GOD of nature is a powerful atomic force at core. I know this force is in me. I respect and I use it wisely but yes faith in this real tangible force for folks who become 'fully enlightened' can move the metaphorical mountains of life. Now to be clear, as I know you know as a successful teacher it doesn't mean actually moving a mountain as some of the literally thinking folks here might limit it to.

But what it does mean is that a 54 year old man who is totally and permanently assessed as disabled with 19 documented medical disorders, who cannot even raise his hands above his head without almost passing out a year ago can be recognized and noted by the majority of folks who participate as the most innovative and creative dancer in one of the top 100 dance clubs in the US. Yes, in just 6 months of training without any lesson except those instinctual ones from within. Additionally, I am recognized as a Kung FU expert without any instructional lessons, by a training expert. And additionally, I am now lifting 740 LBS with free weights with my legs and to put it into visual perspective: 16, 45LB weights and an additional 2, 10LB plates amassed across a bar.

A year ago, the goal of my therapist was to just go into a Whataburger for 15 minutes. I had to watch my wife to walk straight at the mall, even before I got sick. Motor Coordination was not my forte for sure, then. And yes that is documented on this website well before I experienced my second awakening in life last Summer. Yes, with the realities of culture and survival, getting a girl friend, finishing college, getting a job, a house, a car, getting married, and surviving work for over 30 years, almost 25 of it in government service, the first full enlightenment did not last long. The medical disabilities and escape from culture without effective use of my eyes and ears for almost 5 years is the ticket that gets me where I'm at now. Maybe one can say it's sad that's what it took, but for me, perhaps with the literally Autistic thinking mind, before, that is much different now, that is what it took.

Relative Free Will, Faith, Belief, Hope and Sacred Unconditional Love of the force within, outside, as above so below, are all extremely powerful emotive forces that are likely available to most human beings who lose their fears that are culturally inspired through expectations and limitations of culture.

Losing the fear is the hard part.

But for one diagnosed with the assessed worst case of anxiety that a military psychiatrist ever came across, who assessed military folks, specializing in PTSD combat cases, it is potentially possible for almost anyone, considering he gave me no chance of recovery.

This force of GOD of nature is a relative force and power that each individual can potentially gain access to.

The metaphors of poetry are one way to spark the archetypes of evolution of mind and body that are one and same, that a Lion or Tiger, or my feral cat has access to before he is tamed, and still retains to some degree.

Animals need no language to confuse the power of the GOD of nature; they have none.

It's extremely hard to make it happen with any ifs ands or buts.

The movie Frozen and the metaphor of LET IT GO; be the flow, in other words, is a metaphor for enlightenment.

It requires no complex language or logic to truly apply it in life. In fact, almost everything one learns in traditional secondary school is just an obstacle.

But yes, civilization goes on, and the reality is the true human hell of limitations and expectations are the way of life for most domesticated folks, who never find a way to escape human domestication.

If it was just a word and I wasn't moving any metaphorical mountains, with tangible evidence I can measure in my own life, faith would mean little to me.

But no, it is everything now, as I know it is as real a valuable human attribute that can be utilized and continually developed, as the Sun in the sky orbiting a black hole, and electrons that orbit every nucleus in every cell of my body, as above so below.

But there may be no path but an individual one that works for each human being, as the path is within; not one necessarily lead by others with domesticated human expectations and limitations.

Religious text not required; just the 'voice' within aka human social animal instinct and intuition; an attribute sadly missed by many folks these days, in my opinion and of course as that pertains to the rest of this monologue as well.

It's real though.

I have the evidence for me; documented, as such, in REAL LIFE EFFECT AND affect. :)

And I go to this much trouble to share it, as I would be terribly selfish to keep it to myself, considering the real life results. It's not that much trouble either, really, as my so called Autistic Super Power in Hyperlexia is reading somewhere between 10 to 15 times faster than the average human, depending on my attention and focus, and a side ability to type around 130 words a minute, when motivated as such. :)

But no, obviously it's not everyone's cup of tea here; HOWEVER, if only one person finds it within themselves and utilizes IT like I can now, OMG, now THAT WOULD BE COOL. :) Unfortunately, there are no real instructions though; only really to look within, outside, above so below; and other poetic sentiments. ;)

Sentiments are a powerful force of nature, though, for those who find a way to use them, as such.