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zendell
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KimJ wrote:
KRistameth, we've had polls here in the past about "do you get sick a lot"? And it seems that we are either just as healthy or more healthy than the average NT.

It's interesting when an autistic has a some digestive problem or autoimmune issue, some people will tie it in with autism. When NTs have the same issues or other health problems it's just "getting sick".


Should I believe the anecdotal reports on this site or the scientific research?

Several autoimmune issues are found in autism. 58% of autistic children studied had autoantibodies against myelin basic protein. These antibodies aren't just found in autism. They are found in a few other neurological diseases such as multiple sclerosis and encephalopathy. IgG antibodies from mothers of autistics have been shown to cause autism symptoms in monkeys exposed to them. IgG antibodies from mothers of NT children did not cause these symptoms.
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zendell
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KristaMeth wrote:
I want to know how many of us on here feel we have weak immune systems. I've always thought my immune system was sub par. Interesting theory, and I'm definitely happy to see any kind of natural remedies being tested for any illness. Natural is the way to go. This is pretty cool. Best of luck to this guy and his kid.


I'm not sure this site represents most people with ASDs. Researchers have already looked into it. Here's their findings:

Types of Immune Deficiency that occur in Autism
Myeloperoxidase Deficiency - reduces ability to fight yeast
Severe Combined Immunodeficiency Disease (SCID)
Selective IgA Deficiency - 100 -200 times higher than in the normal population
IgG Subclass Deficiency - 20% of autistics
Complement Deficiency
CD4 T- cell deficiency (HHV-6a is a known cause of CD4 T-cell deficiency)
Autoimmunity (58% with ASDs. 90% with ASDs who are positive for measles virus, 84% with ASDs who are positive for HHV-6 virus)

From http://www.centerforautism.com/Biological/immune/

"Two main immune dysfunctions in autism are immune regulation involving pro-inflammatory cytokines and autoimmunity. Mercury and an infectious agent like the measles virus are currently two main candidate environmental triggers for immune dysfunction in autism...The cell-mediated immunity is impaired as evidenced by low numbers of CD4 cells and a concomitant T-cell polarity with an imbalance of Th1/Th2 subsets toward Th2. Impaired humoral immunity on the other hand is evidenced by decreased IgA causing poor gut protection. Studies showing elevated brain specific antibodies in autism support an autoimmune mechanism...Increase in Th2 may explain the increased autoimmunity, such as the findings of antibodies to MBP and neuronal axonal filaments in the brain."

From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=16512356
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KristaMeth
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zendell wrote:
KristaMeth wrote:
I want to know how many of us on here feel we have weak immune systems. I've always thought my immune system was sub par. Interesting theory, and I'm definitely happy to see any kind of natural remedies being tested for any illness. Natural is the way to go. This is pretty cool. Best of luck to this guy and his kid.


I'm not sure this site represents most people with ASDs. Researchers have already looked into it. Here's their findings:

Types of Immune Deficiency that occur in Autism
Myeloperoxidase Deficiency - reduces ability to fight yeast
Severe Combined Immunodeficiency Disease (SCID)
Selective IgA Deficiency - 100 -200 times higher than in the normal population
IgG Subclass Deficiency - 20% of autistics
Complement Deficiency
CD4 T- cell deficiency (HHV-6a is a known cause of CD4 T-cell deficiency)
Autoimmunity (58% with ASDs. 90% with ASDs who are positive for measles virus, 84% with ASDs who are positive for HHV-6 virus)

From http://www.centerforautism.com/Biological/immune/

"Two main immune dysfunctions in autism are immune regulation involving pro-inflammatory cytokines and autoimmunity. Mercury and an infectious agent like the measles virus are currently two main candidate environmental triggers for immune dysfunction in autism...The cell-mediated immunity is impaired as evidenced by low numbers of CD4 cells and a concomitant T-cell polarity with an imbalance of Th1/Th2 subsets toward Th2. Impaired humoral immunity on the other hand is evidenced by decreased IgA causing poor gut protection. Studies showing elevated brain specific antibodies in autism support an autoimmune mechanism...Increase in Th2 may explain the increased autoimmunity, such as the findings of antibodies to MBP and neuronal axonal filaments in the brain."

From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=16512356


Mmm, actual research. That is awesome. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Very interesting.
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richardbenson
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i dont think healing can be found in a bottle
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zendell
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ixochiyo_yohuallan wrote:
Zendell:

I wouldn't like to get into an argument over this, but I am just curious. You keep repeating that there is plenty of evidence which proves that autism is curable, and that it is causd by a virus. Could you actually provide some of it here? With quotes and references, if possible.


I posted many studies about it before and was told that science that opposes the belief that autism is 100% genetic is not welcome on this site but I'll post a couple studies on one of the viruses just for you:

Quote:
J Pediatr. 1978 Oct;93(4):699-703.
Behavioral consequences of congenital rubella.Chess S, Fernandez P, Korn S.

Psychiatric and behavioral consequences of congenital rubella are reported for 243 children studies during the preschool period, and for 205 of these who were re-examined at ages 8 to 9. At preschool 37% were retarded, with the skew toward severe and profound; 15% had reactive behavior disorder and 7% had autism. At school age retardation diminished to 25%, but neurotic problems and behavioral pathology due to neurologic damage both increased. There were two remissions and three new instances of autism.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/702254


Quote:
J Autism Child Schizophr. 1977 Mar;7(1):69-81.
Follow-up report on autism in congenital rubella.Chess S.

A longitudinal study was conducted of 243 children with congenital rubella. In this sample a high rate of autism and a high rate of recovery were observed. Examination of the data suggested that the rubella virus was the primary etiologic agent. It is hypothesized that the course of autism was that of a chronic infection in which recovery, chronicity, improvement, worsening, and delayed appearance of the autistic syndrome all were found...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/576606


There are more studies on it but abstracts aren't available for them, probably because they are all from the 1970s. It's been known for 30 years that the rubella virus may be one cause of autism. Congenital rubella probably causes less than 1% of autism diagnoses so there is no reason to study it anymore.

Notice that they got autism after a chronic viral infection and some of them recovered from autism after the immune system defeated the virus. Also, there was an improvement and worsening of autistic symptoms, as is typical for chronic viral infections. Many of the biological treatments that organizations like Defeat Autism Now! (DAN!) use support the immune system and help fight viruses and other infections. The autism research institute (ARI) at http://www.autism.com claims they have documented over 1,000 recoveries from autism.

I'm not saying every case of autism is caused by a virus. Some of the causes are certainly genetic. The fact that one virus has already been shown to cause autism means that other viruses are a likely cause for other autistics. I'd place a bet that the virus HHV-6, Variant A is a cause of maybe 1/3 of autistics and that Valtrex and Valcyte as well as natural anti-virals like olive leaf extract and mega doses of vitamin C will help some people recover from autism.

For those who disagree that viruses such as rubella cause autism, I won't argue with you. Instead, send a letter to the CDC and tell them you know more about the rubella virus than them. Laughing

The CDC wrote:
infection of pregnant woman with "wild" rubella virus is one of the few known causes of autism.

http://www.cdc.gov/search.do?q=rubella+autism+wild&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&ud=1&oe=utf8&ie=utf8
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srriv345
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zendell wrote:

I posted many studies about it before and was told that science that opposes the belief that autism is 100% genetic is not welcome on this site but I'll post a couple studies on one of the viruses just for you:


Very few traits are 100% genetic, and this applies especially to mental/behavioral traits. ASDs do have a stronger genetic correlation than other mental/neurological conditions, like AD/HD or bipolar disorder. It's not 100%...but some of the "environmental" causes being proposed are pretty outrageous. Everything from vaccines to watching TV to Lyme Disease has been proposed by someone or another. That's why there's so much skepticism about environmental causes. "Environment" encompasses a huge range of factors (both prenatal and post-natal) and there's really no telling at this point which factors contribute to ASDs. (Though a few causes have been pinpointed, such as prenatal rubella. Ironic given the anti-vaccine position. Prenatal exposure to alcohol also might be a factor according to some studies...but no one wants to talk about it. It's all about scapegoating for some people.)

Why is there so much resistance to believing that the autism spectrum is a natural part of biodiversity, even though it (like many other traits!) is not 100% genetic?
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TLPG
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zendell wrote:
TLPG wrote:
Effective for what? Curing the root condition? WRONG... The root cause has never been found

If the cause hasn't been found, then you can't honestly say a treatment is ineffective at treating it.


A general cause (as distinct to the root cause) HAS been found! Genetics! What hasn't been found - yet - is the actual structure of said genetic predisposition.

zendell wrote:
Doctors used to blame their patients for getting stomach ulcers by telling them they were caused by stress. Now it's been proven that a bacterial infection with H. pylori is the cause and can be treated with antibotics. Before it was proven, antibiotics were just as effective yet you would have labeled antibiotic treatment quackery because it wasn't proven yet and you would have been wrong.


But we aren't talking about a genetic condition there are we?

zendell wrote:
Researchers believe multiple sclerosis may be caused by a virus (such as HHV-6a) but it hasn't been conclusively proven. But that doesn't change anything. Anti-viral treatments are still just as effective before it's proven than after it's proven.


But it doesn't prevent the inevitable consequence of MS - death.

zendell wrote:
There's increasing evidence that autism may be caused by a virus but it takes decades to find a virus and conclusively prove it causes a disease.


And it won't because like everything else we are going to side issues instead of the root issue - genetics. Quacks are trying to respond to the panic and taking short cuts (like Andrew Wakefield did - and he will pay the pice for it) resulting in the sort of junk science that you post in here.

zendell wrote:
This man quit a high-paying job, researched autism 90 hours a week to help his kid, and you quickly judge him as a quack. That is wrong. If he is proven right and his treatment works, you will have been proven a liar.


Will never happen, because his son will remain on the Spectrum for life - and it's possible that his alternative treatment will have dire consequences. How old is the kid anyway? Is he anywhere near puberty yet?

zendell wrote:
There is NO evidence that autism is incurable and plenty of evidence that it is curable.


RUBBISH! It's been well known for DECADES that ASD's are genetic in origin. "Curing" a genetic condition is DNA fiddling (eg designer babies and so forth). Leave that sort of thing to Doctor Frankenstein thank you!

zendell wrote:
Acting outside of mainstream medicine is dangerous? NO. Conventional medicine, which kills an estimated 100,000 people every year, is dangerous.


No one has done stats yet, but I'll take odds on this. The mortality rate of those who got alternative like this is far higher! What kills 100,000 people a year is not conventional medicine itself - but rather poor medical practice. That's the fault of the doctors involved, not the process. It's time the medical system had a thorough clean out.

zendell wrote:
I think everyone should act outside of mainstream medicine, go to alternative doctors, reject vaccines, most antibiotics, and most drugs in favor of all natural nutrients and herbs.


Good way to increase the mortality rate. That's almost tantamount to recommending an early grave as a solution to life's problems!

TLPG wrote:
Any immune system issue is seperate to the Autistic Spectrum - a seperation that you always deny exists. Erroneously.


zendell wrote:
I forgot. You know more than all the researchers and experts who believe otherwise. Rolling Eyes I'll let you debate it with them if you want. I'll take the words of the experts.


You take the words of quacks who have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to the crunch. Put these people into a debate with the REAL experts - and see who wins. There's been one already and the guy on your side of the fence got soundly thrashed (can't remember off the top of my head who they were but I think the one on your side may have been David Kirby).
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beau99
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TLPG wrote:


But it doesn't prevent the inevitable consequence of MS - death.


MS is not fatal if treated properly.

There's a singer named Clay Walker who was diagnosed with MS in 1995. Doctors said he'd be dead in 10 years. It's been 12 and nothing happened. He's still going and recording and doing shows like nothing's wrong.
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pbcoll
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TLPG wrote:

zendell wrote:
Acting outside of mainstream medicine is dangerous? NO. Conventional medicine, which kills an estimated 100,000 people every year, is dangerous.


No one has done stats yet, but I'll take odds on this. The mortality rate of those who got alternative like this is far higher! What kills 100,000 people a year is not conventional medicine itself - but rather poor medical practice. That's the fault of the doctors involved, not the process. It's time the medical system had a thorough clean out.

zendell wrote:
I think everyone should act outside of mainstream medicine, go to alternative doctors, reject vaccines, most antibiotics, and most drugs in favor of all natural nutrients and herbs.


Good way to increase the mortality rate. That's almost tantamount to recommending an early grave as a solution to life's problems!


Exactly. And how many people die each year because of a lack of conventional medicine?
An oh yes, natural nutrients and herbs - the sort of things people used back in the days when life expectancy was 40, and most children died before adulthood. The sort of thing that people used when MILLIONS were killed by bubonic plague (now easily cured with antibotics), syphilis (likewise), smallpox (now erradicated thanks to vaccines), rabies (preventable with vaccines), etc. Modern medicine is terrible, it lets people get to experience old age.
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zendell
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pbcoll wrote:
Exactly. And how many people die each year because of a lack of conventional medicine?
An oh yes, natural nutrients and herbs - the sort of things people used back in the days when life expectancy was 40, and most children died before adulthood. The sort of thing that people used when MILLIONS were killed by bubonic plague (now easily cured with antibotics), syphilis (likewise), smallpox (now erradicated thanks to vaccines), rabies (preventable with vaccines), etc. Modern medicine is terrible, it lets people get to experience old age.


Tell yourself whatever you want if it makes you feel good. If think better nutrition, sanatitation, and living conditions were probably the main reason those diseases decline.

Modern medicine has a few advantages. It likely leads high rates of heart disease, cancer, diabetes, asthma, allergies, autoimmune disorders, chronic fatigue, chronic pain, and other lifelong "incurable" and debilitating diseases that affect probably over 50% of Americans (and it's probably high in other countries as well). The big advantage is that theses diseases result in enormous profits for drug companies, doctors, medical researchers, and other people in the disease care industry. Feel free to blame it all on aging (after all, we live longer now) and think it's all just a part of getting old.
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AspieDave
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmmmmm....

According to the doctor who wrote the book about how Autistic geniuses changed the world I just saw in the Albert Einstein thread..... genes for creative thinking and autism are the same ones. Soooooo, zendude... if you're convinced vaccines etc. CAUSE autism, shouldn't you be doing everything in your power to PROMOTE them? The world NEEDS creative thought to get us OUT of the mess we're headed for... If that's the case, we should immediately embark on a worldwide program of mass vaccination along with exposure to tv, junk food, video games and comic books!!!!

It's out DUTY!!! SAVE THE FUTURE!!!!!!
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sinsboldly
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TLPG wrote:
Complete and utter garbage. Like so many other things - this is at best a placebo. This father is treating the symptoms, but he will NEVER get to the root condition. It's there for life.

This is dangerous quackery, and worst of all he's not even seeking proper guidance from herbalists and the like!!

Immune system problem my arse!

YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE YOURSELF AND NO ONE CAN TAKE THAT AWAY FROM YOU



TLPG,
just enjoying your sense of irony with your post and your sig line.

Merle
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srriv345
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zendell wrote:

Modern medicine has a few advantages. It likely leads high rates of heart disease, cancer, diabetes, asthma, allergies, autoimmune disorders, chronic fatigue, chronic pain, and other lifelong "incurable" and debilitating diseases that affect probably over 50% of Americans (and it's probably high in other countries as well). The big advantage is that theses diseases result in enormous profits for drug companies, doctors, medical researchers, and other people in the disease care industry. Feel free to blame it all on aging (after all, we live longer now) and think it's all just a part of getting old.


Did you just make that statistic up? I'd like to see some real numbers. Real numbers for non-senior citizens would be great as well. You can't just lump all these things together and assume they have the same or similar causes...especially because we were ostensibly talking about autism. I mean, allergies? Most people who have them aren't really seriously affected, and the same could probably be said about some who have asthma. Asthma rates, as well as cancer rates, are probably also negatively affected by the huge amounts of pollution which surround us. Heart disease and type II diabetes are clearly affected by poor nutritional habits (which also have a huge socio-economic component, as eating well can be expensive). It is also true that modern medicine is keeping alive many people who might have died in an earlier time period, which results in higher rates of illness. Natural selection never really worked in humans the way it does in other populations, but it's definitely not operating in modern society...and that's a good thing. More people are surviving.

If my mom were born 50 or 60 years earlier, she never would have lived past the age of 17. Instead, the discovery of insulin has prolonged her life significantly. Yes, the pharm. companies charge entirely too much for their products, but that doesn't mean they haven't done a whole lot of good for a whole lot of people and it certainly doesn't mean that they've caused a significant proportion of illness. I notice you somehow forgot to mention the fact that modern medicine means a much better prognosis for those with cancer, heart disease, diabetes, and many other conditions. When would you rather get cancer, today or 100 years ago?

I'm not saying the pharm. companies don't have their ethical issues, but neither are they the source of all health problems in America. You grossly understate the benefits of modern medicine. If it's so terrible, feel free to move to Zimbabwe.
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KimJ
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Should I believe the anecdotal reports on this site or the scientific research?


Well, unless you're also Kristameth, I'm not asking you to believe anything. I was just letting her know about our own previous discussions about immune issues on this site. You see, I'm a parent of an autistic boy. I'm not just some Aspie that ran across this site and talks about my own experience. When I read articles by parents who describe their kids as disease-ridden, in chronic pain and "toxic", then I wonder what is going on with my own son. It turns out that in RL, my kid is more the norm. It's just under-reported, less sensational. Most if not all the autistic kids I have ever met in 3 different states I"ve lived in are all very strong, big and have allergies. There was one born premature that had illness as an infant but by 7, he was fine.

In my experience, people who have allergies are not sickly. Perhaps we are just interpreting the same information differently. Because I"m not refuting any "science" you have cited. I just don't care for the way you generalize and conclude from your own examples, even from "studies" of 13 monkeys.
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sinsboldly
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TLPG wrote:


But it doesn't prevent the inevitable consequence of MS - death.




ahem. . .the inevitable consequence of life - is death; no matter what causes it. . .


Merle
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