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MrMark
Abstract Data Type
Joined: Jul 04, 2006
Age: 51
Posts: 10110
Location: Tallahassee, FL
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 Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:24 am Post subject: Re: I know a case |
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| AceX wrote: | | As a farmacist I find the "faulty but passed the controll" story quite far fetched. |
I would think that a pharmacist would know how to spell pharmacist.
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"The cordial quality of pear or plum
Rises as gladly in the single tree
As in the whole orchards resonant with bees."
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DeaconBlues
They call Alabama the Crimson Tide - call me...
Joined: Apr 22, 2007
Posts: 2263
Location: Earth, mostly
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| MrMark wrote: | Griff, please refrain from name-calling on these forums.
I am not a scientist. I don't know what causes autism. I have posted numerous news articles reporting no link between vaccines and autism. I have looked for news articles from mainstream organizations presenting the other point of view and not found one until now. I'm disappointed I didn't find it first.
If you read the article carefully, the government has not conceded a direct link between vaccines and autism. They have conceded that, "the child had a pre-existing mitochondrial disorder that was "aggravated" by her shots, and which ultimately resulted in an ASD diagnosis," and that compensation was appropriate.
This is a forum for discussion of issues. Zendell has repeatedly insisted that there is a link between vaccines and autism. I have never told him that he was wrong. I have only told him that his was the minority view and that the tide was moving against him.
If you believe that anybody who disagrees with you is just wrong or worse, stupid, then there is no place for you on this forum. There are other autism forums on the web which cater to people who feel this way. |
Actually, MrMark, I got the impression that Griff's diatribe was directed toward Mr. Kirby, whose entire op-ed column (that was not an "article" - phrasing was highly slanted, there was little fact-checking, and opinions were expressed as if they were fact) seemed aimed at "freeing" parents from the "responsibility" of having autistic genes, so that such parents can continue to be smugly certain of their own chromosomal perfection - "This can't be our fault - someone else did this to us!"
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I am RICHARD, Chief Warlock of the Brothers of Darkness, Lord of the Thirteen Hells, Master of the Bones, Emperor of the Black, Lord of the Undead, and Mayor of a little village up the coast. Very scenic during springtime. |
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MrMark
Abstract Data Type
Joined: Jul 04, 2006
Age: 51
Posts: 10110
Location: Tallahassee, FL
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| DeaconBlues wrote: | | MrMark wrote: | | Griff, please refrain from name-calling on these forums. |
Actually, MrMark, I got the impression that Griff's diatribe was directed toward Mr. Kirby, ... |
I don't care who it's directed at. It is the expressive style used by neurotypical schoolchildren toward the kids they don't like.
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"The cordial quality of pear or plum
Rises as gladly in the single tree
As in the whole orchards resonant with bees."
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DW_a_mom
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Posts: 3198
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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I think for the case before the court, the following from the article is most likely to be true:
If the government is claiming that vaccines did not "cause" autism, but instead aggravated a condition to "manifest" as autism, isn't that a very fine distinction?
A fine disctinction, maybe, but an important one, long run.
California just released a study that shows cases of autism continue to rise DESPITE the removal of thimerisol from vaccinations in the state. There is no statistical link between thimerisol and increases in the incidence of autism.
My personal opinion is that autism is caused by genetic conditions but that manifestation can be aggrevated by environmental ones. Perhaps exposure to certain chemicals can make certain symptons and stims worse. For example, is my son's difficulty with writing really because of his Aspergers brain wiring, or because of a chemical effect? He developed completely normally in this area, and possibly ahead of scale, until 3 1/2.
In general, I simply hate the blame game. It takes away from what we parents should be focusing on: helping our children live the best life they can, given who they are. |
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pbcoll
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 15, 2007
Posts: 2100
Location: England
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| DW_a_mom wrote: |
California just released a study that shows cases of autism continue to rise DESPITE the removal of thimerisol from vaccinations in the state. There is no statistical link between thimerisol and increases in the incidence of autism. |
Yes, and by the logic conspiracy theorists use, that proves that removing thimerosal from vaccines causes autism...
The ruling of the courts are scientifically irrelevant - scientific truth is determined by the evidence (otherwise, Galileo would have been wrong about the Earth moving).
Most jurors are going to have no scientific or medical training (and judges are not necessarily much better) - knowing what most people are like, if there is a smooth-talking lawyer skillfully appealing to emotion and hysteria, i can easily imagine the court listening to emotions rather than evidence...
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I am the steppenwolf that never learned to dance. (Sedaka)
El hombre es una bestia famélica, envidiosa e insaciable. (Francisco Tario)
I'm male by the way (yes, I know my avatar is misleading). |
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 23
Posts: 2092
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| DW_a_mom wrote: | I think for the case before the court, the following from the article is most likely to be true:
If the government is claiming that vaccines did not "cause" autism, but instead aggravated a condition to "manifest" as autism, isn't that a very fine distinction?
A fine disctinction, maybe, but an important one, long run.
California just released a study that shows cases of autism continue to rise DESPITE the removal of thimerisol from vaccinations in the state. There is no statistical link between thimerisol and increases in the incidence of autism.
My personal opinion is that autism is caused by genetic conditions but that manifestation can be aggrevated by environmental ones. Perhaps exposure to certain chemicals can make certain symptons and stims worse. For example, is my son's difficulty with writing really because of his Aspergers brain wiring, or because of a chemical effect? He developed completely normally in this area, and possibly ahead of scale, until 3 1/2.
In general, I simply hate the blame game. It takes away from what we parents should be focusing on: helping our children live the best life they can, given who they are. |
The rates of autism appear to be rising just because it's getting diagnosed more, back several decades ago many people now dx'ed with an ASD would of been diagnosed with early-onset schizophrenia (like Nominalist was), Schizoid Personality Disorder, or mental retardation.
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My Blog: My Autistic Life |
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sojournertruth
Toucan
Joined: Dec 02, 2007
Posts: 293
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Griff wrote: | You are attempting to use this hypothesis as a premise on which to deny that autism is generally genetically inherited. You are using this to stock the hopes of guilt-ridden parents who feel threatened by the possibility that something intrinsically "wrong" with themselves could be responsible for the distress endured by their children. Parents of autistic children do go through these feelings.
...You know that these parents would believe anything in the world in order to clear their conscience. You know that many of them would rush to embrace your homeopathic remedies if you came offering absolution. |
this has more than a grain of truth to it. It's the same reason that Ob-Gyns have the highest malpractice premiums of any specialty: parents blame the doctor whenever there's anything wrong with the precious new baby that they've been anticipating for nine months. |
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sartresue
Radical Aspergian
Joined: Dec 19, 2007
Posts: 4606
Location: The Castle of Shock and Awe-tism
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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Devexing vaccines topic
I am suspicious of the title Kirby used in his article. I fear he is speaking out of both sides of his mouth,as if he is sitting on the fence and waiting to see to which side he should jump.
He talks in circles and explains very little. This is not investigative journalism. This is not even reporting. It sounds more like uncritical gossip.
Disappointing, and lacking in clarity.
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Radical Aspergian
Awe-Tistic Whirlwind
Phuture Phounder of the Philosophy Phactory |
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Rjaye
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 05, 2006
Posts: 903
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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Anything in the Huff n Puff Post on autism is to be regarded very, very carefully, i.e. not at all.
As for the rates in California rising, well, the rates of mental retardation and NLDs have declined the same rate. Studies in a few other states have shown the same thing--the exception being New Jersey--who, by the by, has some of the best schools for kids with ASDs in the country and it's paid by the state. Every parent who has commented on this on other boards I've read on other boards moved to NJ just for that reason. Not scientific, but intriguing.
A former childhood schizophrenic, Rjaye |
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AceX
Butterfly
Joined: Feb 24, 2008
Age: 30
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:49 am Post subject: Me/family/doctors cant tell the difference? |
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Correlation-Causation fallacy. It is very common cognitive bias, and a source of many superstitions, to associate two things that occurred close together in time in terms of cause and effect when in fact no such relationship between the events exist.
The girl cried continiusly for a week after the vaccine shot.
She was hospitalised... and never recovered.
The doctors (perhaps even the firm) confirmed the link to this autism case and the vaccine.
However they insist that there was a faulty stock of vaccine on the market.(that must be the firms story)
If there was a faulty stock on the market there should be more identical cases.
In the city I live in though (Thessaloniki Greece) this insident is unique. |
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alex
Developer
Joined: Jun 14, 2004
Age: 23
Posts: 6492
Location: DC Metro Area (No. VA)
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| beau99 wrote: | | It's best not to trust anything written by David Kirby. |
additionaly, autism wasn't even mentioned in that case.... talk about misleading journalism.  |
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