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tweety_fan
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 03, 2007
Posts: 1035
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 Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | tweety_fan wrote: | never before in human history has a man carried a child. i hope the kid is healthy when born and the uniqueness of the situation does not upset it to much. i hope that the kid gets all the love it will ever need.
anyone seen the movie "Junior"? similar scenario. |
If Transgender Man actually carries to term and delivers the baby with no complications (and that's a HUGE if), what will the newborn be? Will it be remotely human?
Junior was just a movie. Its premise was no more plausible than The Sixth Day or Eight-Legged Freaks. |
of course its just a movie.
good luck to them for all i care. |
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Kaleido
On an extended tea break
Joined: Feb 19, 2007
Age: 49
Posts: 2115
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| iceb wrote: | | a child will accept there parent whatever they are and is only a problem for people who have had society's ****ed up rules driven into them. |
Well said.
I love you iceb  |
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slowmutant
Heyyyy!
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 3471
Location: The Great White North
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Kaleido wrote: | | iceb wrote: | | a child will accept there parent whatever they are and is only a problem for people who have had society's ****ed up rules driven into them. |
Well said.
I love you iceb |
Not all of society's rules are actually f***ed up. In fact, most of them exist for very good reasons. The rules driven into me as a child are ones I'm very thankful to have learned. You can't blame society just because your life isn't fair. Some things aren't accepted by society because they really are unacceptable.
And don't automatically assume that I am talking about the progeny of the so-called Transgender Man. People who have such sexual confusion have to earn the respect of others just like regular folk. Being that way does not entitle you to any special treatment. Transgenders only want to treated like everyone else; no more, no less. |
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DW_a_mom
Velociraptor
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Posts: 486
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| KimJ wrote: | The arguments posted here about transgendered people and their families are the exact arguments I grew up hearing against miscegenation and interracial dating-heck the same arguments for sterilizing disabled people. "It's not that we're prejudiced, but what will other people say? It's not fair to the kids".
And I've heard of plenty of trannys that don't get complete reassignment. |
Valid point.
I think my real issue here is that it becomes one more case of all the issues I've come to see with the IVF process, in general: the continual ability to do things that nature would never allow. Nature, by itself, would never stop an inter-racial couple from having a healthy child. But nature would not have allowed this couple to have a child without reproductive assistance. In that way, the examples are different.
Ah, but many "regular" couples use reproductive assistance. Yes, and overall it has been a gift. But, it remains true that the ability has created all sorts of ethical issues that have needed a good deal of creativity to sort out. What happens when too many embryo's take? What happens when a surrogate is used? I was appalled the first time I read that IVF often led to selective reduction. That issue has now been solved - by genetic prescreening. Sound familiar? It ALL is tricky moral territory.
My musings in my prior posts really have more to do with my increasing discomfort with all the ways society is trying to trump nature when it comes to having children. It's just one more example of how odd the results can be.
No one ever had to battle the laws of nature to marry someone of a different race. And no one has had to battle the laws of nature to fall in love with, and form a permanent relationship with, someone of the same gender. In both situations, they have only had to battle preconceptions and bad laws. So my question has been more of, "at point should we realize that nature is trying to tell us something? That there are good reasons for the way some things "are?"
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EvilKimEvil
zoo-music girl
Joined: Sep 27, 2007
Posts: 3038
Location: CA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| DW_a_mom wrote: | | KimJ wrote: | The arguments posted here about transgendered people and their families are the exact arguments I grew up hearing against miscegenation and interracial dating-heck the same arguments for sterilizing disabled people. "It's not that we're prejudiced, but what will other people say? It's not fair to the kids".
And I've heard of plenty of trannys that don't get complete reassignment. |
Valid point.
I think my real issue here is that it becomes one more case of all the issues I've come to see with the IVF process, in general: the continual ability to do things that nature would never allow. Nature, by itself, would never stop an inter-racial couple from having a healthy child. But nature would not have allowed this couple to have a child without reproductive assistance. In that way, the examples are different.
Ah, but many "regular" couples use reproductive assistance. Yes, and overall it has been a gift. But, it remains true that the ability has created all sorts of ethical issues that have needed a good deal of creativity to sort out. What happens when too many embryo's take? What happens when a surrogate is used? I was appalled the first time I read that IVF often led to selective reduction. That issue has now been solved - by genetic prescreening. Sound familiar? It ALL is tricky moral territory.
My musings in my prior posts really have more to do with my increasing discomfort with all the ways society is trying to trump nature when it comes to having children. It's just one more example of how odd the results can be.
No one ever had to battle the laws of nature to marry someone of a different race. And no one has had to battle the laws of nature to fall in love with, and form a permanent relationship with, someone of the same gender. In both situations, they have only had to battle preconceptions and bad laws. So my question has been more of, "at point should we realize that nature is trying to tell us something? That there are good reasons for the way some things "are?" |
What does IVF have to do with the situation being discussed? This man has complete female reproductive organs. According to the news stories, the couple bought sperm from a sperm bank. His wife then injected it into his vagina with a regular syringe, in a private setting at their home. How does that challenge the laws of nature?
He had stopped taking testosterone two years before he became pregnant, so he has normal female hormones at this point. His sexual reassignment involved taking testosterone (until two years ago), breast removal, and legally changing his gender to male.
There is a lot of variation in the details of sexual reassignment. It is not unusual for a transgender person to choose to only take hormones and not have any surgery at all. Many can't even afford the surgery. Sexual reassignment is defined as a change in identity, as opposed to a specific physical change. |
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slowmutant
Heyyyy!
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 3471
Location: The Great White North
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | His wife then injected it into his vagina with a regular syringe, in a private setting at their home. How does that challenge the laws of nature? |
How does it not? Don't you realize how freakishly disgusting and unholy this is?! 
Liberalism should only go so far. Eventually it must fetch up against conservative thought so the world remains healthy and viable.
Since when it natural for a man to have a vagina?
And to have someone inject him with sperm from a medical syringe? David Cronenberg is a Canadian director whose favourite themes include addiction, infection, and "biological horror" (The Fly, Videodrome). I kid you not, the movie Videodrome features a man discovering a female sex organ in the middle of his chest. Look it up on the IMDB, boyos!
If someone tried to write / draw a graphic novel with this story as the plot ... the obscenity of it would land them in jail.
God hates freaks and so do I. |
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EvilKimEvil
zoo-music girl
Joined: Sep 27, 2007
Posts: 3038
Location: CA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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I meant "syringe" literally: a plastic tube with a plunger thing. Not a syringe with a needle attached to it.
The object used doesn't really matter. Just about anything could be used to get sperm from a male body into a female reproductive system. Sperm remains viable for about 76 hours after it has left the male's body and it can travel a surprising distance on its own. Sex has never been essential for reproduction.
The unnatural part is not the fact that sperm was taken from a male and put into a female reproductive system.
It seems the issue of concern is that the female reproductive system in question is in the body of an individual who was born female and later assumed a male identity. Identity aside, the individual is a female who had her breasts surgically removed and took male hormones for a while - that is the part of the equation that involves recently developed technology, not the conception or the pregnancy itself. |
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slowmutant
Heyyyy!
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 3471
Location: The Great White North
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| EvilKimEvil wrote: | I meant "syringe" literally: a plastic tube with a plunger thing. Not a syringe with a needle attached to it.
The object used doesn't really matter. Just about anything could be used to get sperm from a male body into a female reproductive system. Sperm remains viable for about 76 hours after it has left the male's body and it can travel a surprising distance on its own. Sex has never been essential for reproduction.
The unnatural part is not the fact that sperm was taken from a male and put into a female reproductive system.
It seems the issue of concern is that the female reproductive system in question is in the body of an individual who was born female and later assumed a male identity. Identity aside, the individual is a female who had her breasts surgically removed and took male hormones for a while - that is the part of the equation that involves recently developed technology, not the conception or the pregnancy itself. |
Whew. For a minute there I thought you were referring to the object with which a woman's face is infused with Botox. A turkey baster makes it aesthetically pleasing.
Since sex is irrevelant to reproduction, Mr. Cousteau, why do all the animals on Discovery Channel play hide-the-sausage with eachother? |
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DW_a_mom
Velociraptor
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Posts: 486
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| EvilKimEvil wrote: |
What does IVF have to do with the situation being discussed? This man has complete female reproductive organs. According to the news stories, the couple bought sperm from a sperm bank. His wife then injected it into his vagina with a regular syringe, in a private setting at their home. How does that challenge the laws of nature? |
Perhaps nothing; perhaps everything. I never fetched the details on HOW "he" became pregnant as you apparently did, so I jumped to an assumption. However, even though I'm wrong on that, it's still part of the same picture: modern medicine allows people to do things that cannot happen in nature, and it is very true in the case. Without the contortions of modern science and medicine, there would not be someone born as a woman living legally as a man, and that person would not have a conceived a child through donated sperm (even if sperm is technically viable for up to 76 hours, it is NOT that simple, I promise, lol!). At some point there is a line to be drawn - where is it? I am not giving an answer. Just asking a question.
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slowmutant
Heyyyy!
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 3471
Location: The Great White North
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| DW_a_mom wrote: | | EvilKimEvil wrote: |
What does IVF have to do with the situation being discussed? This man has complete female reproductive organs. According to the news stories, the couple bought sperm from a sperm bank. His wife then injected it into his vagina with a regular syringe, in a private setting at their home. How does that challenge the laws of nature? |
Perhaps nothing; perhaps everything. I never fetched the details on HOW "he" became pregnant as you apparently did, so I jumped to an assumption. However, even though I'm wrong on that, it's still part of the same picture: modern medicine allows people to do things that cannot happen in nature, and it is very true in the case. Without the contortions of modern science and medicine, there would not be someone born as a woman living legally as a man, and that person would not have a conceived a child through donated sperm (even if sperm is technically viable for up to 76 hours, it is NOT that simple, I promise, lol!). At some point there is a line to be drawn - where is it? I am not giving an answer. Just asking a question. |
We should've drawn that line well before the appearance of Transgender Man. In the Middle East, no one would have allowed this crazy crap to happen. They may be terrorists, but they do have very clear boundaries. |
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Who_Am_I
Lost
Joined: Aug 28, 2005
Age: 24
Posts: 2961
Location: My body is in Brisbane and my mind is in the gutter. :D
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:36 am Post subject: |
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Oh noes, they are messing with the laws of nature and confusing the little boxes that we put people in our heads. Let us all cry like babies and call the wrath of God down on their heads.
I would like to echo Rainsong's question: why wouldn't the child be human?
Let her/him be a man: who is it hurting? WHY is it so aberrant and disgusting?
(Apart from the fact that I am sexually attracted to men, gender is pretty well irrelevant to me: people are more complicated than that.)
A question: a woman who had undergone a sex change to become a man: she wouldn't have a Y chromosome. How does that affect her status as a man?
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Triangular_Trees
What is right is sometimes found on the left.
Joined: Jul 18, 2007
Posts: 1379
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And I've heard of plenty of trannys that don't get complete reassignment. |
If you look at the surgery for FTM's its not surprise at all that most don't get bottom surgery. If you have the surgery you can't urinate standing up and you either have to have your penis being constantly erect or constantly flacid.
If you don't have the surgery you can stick a packy in your pants which enable you to use the urinal and you can make it erect when it needs to be and flacid when it doesn't
**Also I find it ridiculous that some of the comments I've been hearing about this (not just on here) are things like "well its not really a man, you can put lipstick on a pig but its still a pig." When this person is a man in every sense but the physical one. Brain BSTc's/lack of the symmetry between brain hemispheres found in non transgendered female etc. So people claim that dressing up a pig doesn't make it a person as its a pig underneath, but they ignore everything that is underneath the skin when they claim that a transgendered man is actually a female.
Saying a transgendered man is female simply because they were born physically female is no different than saying someone born with only one leg isn't human. After all, humans have too legs, just like all men are born with penises.
Last edited by Triangular_Trees on Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Triangular_Trees
What is right is sometimes found on the left.
Joined: Jul 18, 2007
Posts: 1379
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | We should've drawn that line well before the appearance of Transgender Man. In the Middle East, no one would have allowed this crazy crap to happen. They may be terrorists, but they do have very clear boundaries. |
Oh really? Then why was that 16 year old girl allowed to become a man when she went to the hospital experiencing severe stomach pain, and they discovered she had testicles? She had been designated as a woman by the doctors, and her parents 16 years beforehand |
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slowmutant
Heyyyy!
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 3471
Location: The Great White North
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| Triangular_Trees wrote: | | Quote: | | We should've drawn that line well before the appearance of Transgender Man. In the Middle East, no one would have allowed this crazy crap to happen. They may be terrorists, but they do have very clear boundaries. |
Oh really? Then why was that 16 year old girl allowed to become a man when she went to the hospital experiencing severe stomach pain, and they discovered she had testicles? She had been designated as a woman by the doctors, and her parents 16 years beforehand |
Why not just remove the testicles instead of converting the whole person into a member of the opposite sex?
BTW did the girl have both ovaries and testes? |
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Triangular_Trees
What is right is sometimes found on the left.
Joined: Jul 18, 2007
Posts: 1379
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | Triangular_Trees wrote: | | Quote: | | We should've drawn that line well before the appearance of Transgender Man. In the Middle East, no one would have allowed this crazy crap to happen. They may be terrorists, but they do have very clear boundaries. |
Oh really? Then why was that 16 year old girl allowed to become a man when she went to the hospital experiencing severe stomach pain, and they discovered she had testicles? She had been designated as a woman by the doctors, and her parents 16 years beforehand |
Why not just remove the testicles instead of converting the whole person into a member of the opposite sex?
BTW did the girl have both ovaries and testes? |
I'm trying to find the article but not having luck as I can't remember much of the details. The title was her about her father exclaiming something about gaining a son. It wasn't "a son is born" but was something close to that, and I believe they were either Iraqi's or Iranians. It happened a couple of years ago. |
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