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SertraOD
Butterfly
Joined: Apr 04, 2008
Posts: 9
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 Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | Quote: | | His wife then injected it into his vagina with a regular syringe, in a private setting at their home. How does that challenge the laws of nature? |
How does it not? Don't you realize how freakishly disgusting and unholy this is?!  |
Unless you plan to prove your belief in God is in any way rational, let alone factual, kindly keep your ignorance to yourself. Besides that, how exactly can someone "realize" a subjective feeling like disgust? Do you even think?
| Quote: | | Liberalism should only go so far. Eventually it must fetch up against conservative thought so the world remains healthy and viable. |
This is not just a "liberal" idea; the political spectrum does not exist in the false dichotomy of "conservative" vs. liberal. If that's your understanding of politics, then perhaps you should refrain from having an opinion. And yes, opinions CAN be objectively analyzed, and your's is based on a false axiom and horrendous (or lack of) logic.
| Quote: | Since when it natural for a man to have a vagina?
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If by "natural" you mean it is not within the human gene pool to develop a man's body and a woman's vagina at birth, then you are correct. However, this is a misuse of the word"natural". Since human action and behavior caused this body modification, and since human behavior is natural, then this person's body is natural. Also, whether or not it's natural is irrelevant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature
Besides, the existence of hermaphrodites seems to contradict your little man and woman dichotomy. This dichotomy does not exist on any level: not on the social level, not on the psychological level, and not even on the genetic level.
| Quote: | If someone tried to write / draw a graphic novel with this story as the plot ... the obscenity of it would land them in jail.
God hates freaks and so do I. |
What country are you speaking of?
I don't care what your imaginary friend thinks. |
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 2954
Location: The Great White North
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: |
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You argue well. I respect that and so I salute you
Appeal to Nature ... hmm. I don't dispute that. I see how it is logical.
Despite what you must think of me, I am not entirely irrational.
Well-played!
_________________
Time's a sheet and life's a stain,
the things we all know will change
and all those things remain the same,
but be ye mad or only sane,
The rain in Spain falls on the plain.
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Prof_Pretorius
troubled Soul
Joined: Aug 21, 2006
Age: 50
Posts: 4231
Location: Hiding in the attic of the Arkham Library
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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Individuals have the right to get pregnant as they please, regardless of the gender-image they choose.
BUT to do it with a profit motive in mind, to write a book, to get a ton of publicity, that's immoral.
_________________
I wake to sleep, and take my waking slow. I feel my fate in what I cannot fear. I learn by going where I have to go. ~Theodore Roethke |
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EvilKimEvil
zoo-music girl
Joined: Sep 27, 2007
Posts: 3033
Location: CA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| DW_a_mom wrote: | | EvilKimEvil wrote: |
What does IVF have to do with the situation being discussed? This man has complete female reproductive organs. According to the news stories, the couple bought sperm from a sperm bank. His wife then injected it into his vagina with a regular syringe, in a private setting at their home. How does that challenge the laws of nature? |
Perhaps nothing; perhaps everything. I never fetched the details on HOW "he" became pregnant as you apparently did, so I jumped to an assumption. However, even though I'm wrong on that, it's still part of the same picture: modern medicine allows people to do things that cannot happen in nature, and it is very true in the case. Without the contortions of modern science and medicine, there would not be someone born as a woman living legally as a man, and that person would not have a conceived a child through donated sperm (even if sperm is technically viable for up to 76 hours, it is NOT that simple, I promise, lol!). At some point there is a line to be drawn - where is it? I am not giving an answer. Just asking a question. |
I agree that it's important to question the ethics of actions and events made possible by new technology. However, this case does not involve new technology. Hormones started to be used for sexual reassignment in the mid-twentieth century. Surgical breast removal is an even older practice. And, of course, artificial insemination has a long history. Over the years, research and technological advances have increased the chances of successful conception through this method, but it has always been possible to conceive without intercourse.
I'm just trying to get to the core of the issue being discussed. When I examine the details, the concern seems to be based on the issue of an individual with a male identity becoming pregnant. This case does not involve new or complex technology, so the key questions must revolve around the definition and parameters of gender identity. Or is there another angle that I'm missing?
Of course, it is still worthwhile to discuss the ethics of medical technology that has been in existence for a long time. And I think this is a good opportunity to do so. My goal here is to identify the specific questions of medical ethics that apply directly to this story. So far, they elude me, and I'm finding only questions of a social and cultural nature. |
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 2954
Location: The Great White North
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject: appeal to nature |
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Nature can dissapoint and disgust, but it's by no means disposable. All things artificial and unnatural are not inherently prefereable to what Nature provides in abundance. When Nature is "fixed" or "improved on" by human beings, almost always the results of our meddling are monstrous.
Since we have this godlike power to change virtually anything we don't like, our responsibility to Nature and ourselves both is mind-boggling.
_________________
Time's a sheet and life's a stain,
the things we all know will change
and all those things remain the same,
but be ye mad or only sane,
The rain in Spain falls on the plain.
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NewportBeachDude
Deinonychus
Joined: Dec 25, 2007
Posts: 355
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| RainSong wrote: | Why wouldn't the child be human? People shouldn't judge her (the baby); she has nothing to do with it at all.
I don't particularly care either way. I don't know the family, and they're not affecting me; they're within their rights, so there you go. |
Yes, the baby will be totally human. I think the parents should go out of their ways to keep the baby out of the media because unscrupulous people will do anything to make money off of that baby.
I hope they don't get caught up in the media frenzy and sell pictures of the baby. Now that would disgust me because it would be like pimping the baby for money. |
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NewportBeachDude
Deinonychus
Joined: Dec 25, 2007
Posts: 355
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | God hates freaks and so do I. |
Sorry, dude, but I disagree. God hates no one. He loves everybody and understands things that seem impossible for us to do. His loves transcends anything that man can conjure up. |
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 2954
Location: The Great White North
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: Retraction |
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I apologize for the God Hates Freaks comment, everybody. 
I retract the statement and wish I had not posted it on this forum. Some of the things I said about transgendered people were hateful, immature, and bigoted. Not to mention stupid.
_________________
Time's a sheet and life's a stain,
the things we all know will change
and all those things remain the same,
but be ye mad or only sane,
The rain in Spain falls on the plain.
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Chibi_Neko
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 24, 2007
Age: 25
Posts: 700
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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Honestly? When I heard of this story, I was like ..... yes! Now women can have a break! If my husband where able to carry a baby for me and offered to, I would be "Go right ahead!"
But I don't really call this guy a real 'man' because she was born a woman, and kept her reporductive organs, so that still makes her a woman that looks like a man.
I really do think that this was done within nature, simply because she was given natural chemicals that men naturally create, and the baby is in a natural woman's womb. So overall? I can't see anything wrong in this at all.
_________________
Humans are intelligent, but that doesn't make them smart. |
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Prof_Pretorius
troubled Soul
Joined: Aug 21, 2006
Age: 50
Posts: 4231
Location: Hiding in the attic of the Arkham Library
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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This has turned out to be quite the lively thread !!!
Who'd of thought !!!
_________________
I wake to sleep, and take my waking slow. I feel my fate in what I cannot fear. I learn by going where I have to go. ~Theodore Roethke |
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NewportBeachDude
Deinonychus
Joined: Dec 25, 2007
Posts: 355
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:01 am Post subject: Re: Retraction |
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| slowmutant wrote: | I apologize for the God Hates Freaks comment, everybody.
I retract the statement and wish I had not posted it on this forum. Some of the things I said about transgendered people were hateful, immature, and bigoted. Not to mention stupid. |
Cool. Everybody's entitled to their opinion, but I do think there's a higher power who loves us all unconditionally. |
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NewportBeachDude
Deinonychus
Joined: Dec 25, 2007
Posts: 355
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| Chibi_Neko wrote: | | Honestly? When I heard of this story, I was like ..... yes! Now women can have a break! If my husband where able to carry a baby for me and offered to, I would be "Go right ahead!" |
Men with morning sickness? That's a scarey thought. |
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