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| Do you believe"Time Travlers"could currently be in our midst? |
| Yes, why not, I'd rather believe the weird guy who furtivtly tells me hes from the future than think hes lying. Besides "Science Fiction usually becomes Science Fact" |
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48% |
[ 23 ] |
| No, its all a bunch of "Science Fiction" |
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| Total Votes : 47 |
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slowmutant
Templar Knight
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 5121
Location: Ontario Canada
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 Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 11:54 am Post subject: |
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Before the Wright Brothers, human flight was not possible. Time makes all things possible. Do you think anyone living in Shakespeare's England could get his head around open-heart surgery, CGI, or bullet trains?
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Fnord
Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 1457
Location: Pantopia
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | Before the Wright Brothers, human flight was not possible. Time makes all things possible. Do you think anyone living in Shakespeare's England could get his head around open-heart surgery, CGI, or bullet trains? |
Sorry, but you have committed a false analogy. Both powered flight and bullet trains were predictable by science before their advents. Brain surgery has always been possible (if sometimes impractical), and was performed during the stone age.
In contrast, retrograde time travel has not been shown to be possible by any means. The theories that have been proposed (and later debunked) assume non-existent states of matter, expenditures if more energy than even a quasar could produce, or some 'magical' principle that has not been discovered.
And before you throw out an appeal to ignorance (e.g. "We have no evidence that it does not exist, therefore, it must exist."), let me tell you that I was serious about my challenge:
Prove that retrograde time travel is possible, and I will exile myself to the past.
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For the truth about Religion, 911, and Paranormal Phenomena, click on these links: www.NTSkeptics.org/factsheets/esp.htm; www.SkepDic.com; www.StopSylviaBrowne.com
www.WhatsTheHarm.net; http://www.SouthernCrossReview.org/41/9-11.htm |
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slowmutant
Templar Knight
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 5121
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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Not in Shakespeare's time they weren't. No one had yet imagined them. I have committed no fallacy. You simply misunderstood what I said. How can 600 year-old science prove or disprove what exists today?
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YowlingCat
Lick a Cat - Get a Hairball
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Joined: Feb 12, 2007
Posts: 1013
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Fnord
Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 1457
Location: Pantopia
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | Not in Shakespeare's time they weren't. No one had yet imagined them. |
Leonardo DaVinci (April 15, 1452 – May 2, 1519) conceptualized ("imagined") the helicopter - a powered flying machine - about 50 years before William Shakespeare (baptised 26 April 1564 – 23 April 1616) was born.
The use of a flanged wheel to support and guide a vehicle over fixed rails was demonstrated by the ancient chinese. Magnetic levitation was also demonstred then. The idea of using "tracked" roads is at least 2000 years old; quarries in Greece, Malta, and the Roman Empire used cut stone tracks to haul loads pulled by animals.
Steam engines have a history going back over two thousand years. In the first century AD; the first recorded use of steam - the aeolipile - was described by Hero of Alexandria.
All the principles were there, just waiting to be put together. The sciences of the day could have predicted them, but it took educated people of vision (who weren't afraid to get their hands dirty) to make these dream machines come true.
However, no science has so far presented, or even so much as hinted at a verifiable principle that could make retrograde time travel possible. This is the de facto standard for "impossible".
_________________
For the truth about Religion, 911, and Paranormal Phenomena, click on these links: www.NTSkeptics.org/factsheets/esp.htm; www.SkepDic.com; www.StopSylviaBrowne.com
www.WhatsTheHarm.net; http://www.SouthernCrossReview.org/41/9-11.htm |
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greenblue
¸.·´´¯`··.¸.·´
Joined: Mar 26, 2007
Posts: 7301
Location: Home
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Deus_ex_machina wrote: | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Folded_Himself
Been there done that. |
Very interesting, I would probably do that if I had a time machine 
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We all dream; we do not understand our dreams, yet we act as if nothing strange goes on in our sleep minds, strange at least by comparison with the logical, purposeful doings of our minds when we are awake. -Erich Fromm |
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YowlingCat
Lick a Cat - Get a Hairball
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Joined: Feb 12, 2007
Posts: 1013
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Fnord wrote: |
However, no science has so far presented, or even so much as hinted at a verifiable principle that could make retrograde time travel possible. This is the de facto standard for "impossible". |
Then, by your rule, nuclear power was "impossible" (until the twentieth century). |
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Fnord
Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 1457
Location: Pantopia
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, the groundwork for atomic physics started around 500 BCE, when ancient Greeks first predicted the existance of the atom.
But that may be stretching it a bit.
However, in 1803 (beginning of the 19th century), John Dalton (1766-1844) proposed a systematic set of postulates to describe the atom. Before the end of the 19th century, Becquerel, Roentgen, the Curies, and others worked with uranium and determined the principles of radioactivity. Many of their calculations showed the basic principles of nuclear fission, which is the underlying principle of nuclear power. They just did not see the potential that was right in front of them!
I am not saying that these discoveries were impossible beforehand; what I am saying is that given the previously-known sciences, and a keen and analytical mind, these discoveries were inevitable.
So, given the current state of science - what we know today - and the intellect and insight of today's scientists, there is no known way to even begin to arrive at the first principles of retrograde time travel (RTT).
And I know that RTT is impossible, anyway, because it would violate an already-known and well-established law of physics. That is, the Law of Causality - an event can not occur before or simultaneously with its cause. Thus, a future cause could not possibly result in a past event. Any experiment designed to show violation of causality failed to do so.
Through theoretical and experimental methods, retrograde time travel is shown to be impossible <Quod Erat Demonstrandum>
_________________
For the truth about Religion, 911, and Paranormal Phenomena, click on these links: www.NTSkeptics.org/factsheets/esp.htm; www.SkepDic.com; www.StopSylviaBrowne.com
www.WhatsTheHarm.net; http://www.SouthernCrossReview.org/41/9-11.htm |
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YowlingCat
Lick a Cat - Get a Hairball
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Joined: Feb 12, 2007
Posts: 1013
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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Damn! It must be something to know everything with absolute certainty.
Nonetheless, for people who like to think about possibilities in accordance with logic and science, this article might be interesting:
Time Machine
From my readings over the years (and they are many), there are few real scientists who flat out rule out the possibility. They reasonably say, "we're not sure." |
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Fnord
Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 1457
Location: Pantopia
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| YowlingCat wrote: | | Damn! It must be something to know everything with absolute certainty. |
What I know, I know with certainty.
At least, until proven wrong ... got a working retrograde time-travel device that can translate 200 kg 100 years into the past? I'll go and report on the Tunguska Event from an underground bunker near ground zero, hop over to the north pole to greet Robert Perry, bet on the Chicago Cubs to win the World Series, try to get an interview with Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid before they're croaked, and then skip off to Europe to arrange some 'accidents' for Messrs. Hitler, Lenin, Marx, and Stalin.
Then I'll leave a signed postcard, saying "Huzzah!" with the Lloyd's administrators. But by the time you get it on your eighteenth birthday, I'll be long dead.
| YowlingCat wrote: | Nonetheless, for people who like to think about possibilities in accordance with logic and science, this article might be interesting:
Time Machine
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Long on ideas, subjunctive clauses, and excuses - dismally short on results. In other words, a purely philosophical and speculative treatment of esoterical fantasies that are utterly lacking in material proof.
Although the concept of a temporal wormhole that achieves its negative time differential by looping through an intense gravity well seems intriguing...
Too bad wormholes are also impossible above the quantum level.
| YowlingCat wrote: | | From my readings over the years (and they are many), there are few real scientists who flat out rule out the possibility. They reasonably say, "we're not sure." |
From my collaborations with Runs I and II of the D0 Detector project at the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Batavia, Illinois, I can let you in on a secret. No scientist worth his tenure will ever explicitely say the word "Impossible" to anyone but a student. The phrase "We're not sure" is reserved for published works, public interviews, and audits by the GAO; and it usually translates into something like "Impossible, but we'd like for you to continue funding our research".
_________________
For the truth about Religion, 911, and Paranormal Phenomena, click on these links: www.NTSkeptics.org/factsheets/esp.htm; www.SkepDic.com; www.StopSylviaBrowne.com
www.WhatsTheHarm.net; http://www.SouthernCrossReview.org/41/9-11.htm |
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slowmutant
Templar Knight
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 5121
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, I concede. Retrograde time-travel is impossible.
*weeps bitterly*
Now to pick up the pieces of my life and *sniffle* go on living.
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YowlingCat
Lick a Cat - Get a Hairball
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Joined: Feb 12, 2007
Posts: 1013
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| Fnord wrote: |
What I know, I know with certainty. |
You must be very young.
And philosophy goes hand-in-hand with science. Have you actually studied advanced logic (The Calculus)?
| Fnord wrote: |
From my collaborations with Runs I and II of the D0 Detector project at the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Batavia, Illinois, I can let you in on a secret. No scientist worth his tenure will ever explicitely say the word "Impossible" to anyone but a student. The phrase "We're not sure" is reserved for published works, public interviews, and audits by the GAO; and it usually translates into something like "Impossible, but we'd like for you to continue funding our research". |
Ooh... with my collaborations at Sandia National Laboratories in Albuquerque, New Mexico, "possible" is a preferred word. |
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ouinon
chemical reaction
Joined: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 2926
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 4:51 am Post subject: |
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Maybe not time travel but time-viewing, looking backwards and forwards in time. "Telescopes" through time.
Pass signals through time.
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"Life is pain; anyone who says different is selling something" |
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slowmutant
Templar Knight
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 5121
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 9:25 am Post subject: |
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How about going sideways through time, to parallel universes?
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Fnord
Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 1457
Location: Pantopia
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| ouinon wrote: | | Maybe not time travel but time-viewing, looking backwards and forwards in time. "Telescopes" through time. Pass signals through time. |
Looking back through time is already being done. The methods are part of the sciences of "Archeology", "Geology", "Paleontology", and others. As for looking forward through time...
Got Evidence?
| slowmutant wrote: | | How about going sideways through time, to parallel universes? |
Again, Got Evidence?
I used to like watching Star Trek and reading comic books ... excuse me ... graphic novels too; after all, they are what inspired me to take up the sciences. Unfortunately, most of my colleagues were too busy writing grant proposals, belittling grad students, or arguing about the limits of possibility to ever produce any really practical knowledge. So I dropped out of research and took up engineering instead.
Even those pampered warmongers over at Sandia Labs know that only results count (unless you have a defense contract), and that a moderate, yet reliable level of "hard" money beats intermittent spurts of "soft" money any day.
_________________
For the truth about Religion, 911, and Paranormal Phenomena, click on these links: www.NTSkeptics.org/factsheets/esp.htm; www.SkepDic.com; www.StopSylviaBrowne.com
www.WhatsTheHarm.net; http://www.SouthernCrossReview.org/41/9-11.htm |
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