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D1nk0
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 12, 2007
Age: 29
Posts: 1589
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 Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: |
2) Just as the lot here are easily critical of the religious community--some even "religiously" critical, I too am very critical of the transgendered. It is very disturbing to know that people believe that they're females, or males, trapped inside a different body. If you cannot see how ridiculous such a thing sounds, I can't help you with anything. It comes across very insulting and ungrateful, just shows one of the sickness in the mind of people.
If a psychiatrists advices a transgendered to get an operation then that psychiatrists deserves to have its degree and position taken and itself put through psychiatric help. I wonder what my psych. will tell me if I say "I am a lion trapped inside a human body. Why can't I just be myself?" Would he advice me to get a mane and tail implant?
If you're gay, be gay. Just don't go about thinking you need breasts and a penectomy. You will still be a male, albeit a deformed one. |
In case you hadn't noticed, not only are mens and womens bodies different but their BRAINS are different as well!
People with gender-identity disorders have large areas of their brain structed like that of a member of the opposite sex. Essentially, the sexual biology of their brains does NOT correspond to the sex of their body. 
So it Seems illogical and defies common sense, but there is a scientific explanation for it. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1966
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| MissConstrue wrote: | Yes you have every right to but........that's a lot of discussion on marriage, don't you think?
I don't see a point in your issues. They just go on and on. |
The same with the other side.
I have to reply to people, no?
| Odin wrote: |
Just because someone is BIOLOGICALLY a certain sex doesn't mean they are that sex NEUROLOGICALLY. That is what I'm trying to say. Some hormonal fluctuation during pregnancy could cause the body to develop one way and the brain to develop the other way. |
And that doesn't mean anyone should find it acceptable.
| D1nk0 wrote: | WHY is gay marriage such a controversial issue here on WP? To those who oppose the legalization of gay marriage I say this: WHAT ABOUT THE PERSUIT OF HAPPINESS?? Opposing gay marriage AFAIC is ANTI-INDIVIDUAL! It says that individuals who seek to do something in the persuit of their own happiness should NOT be legally allowed to do it because it defies the social norms...Thats ASSININE! 
MIGHT I ADD: Sexual orientation and *gender identity* are Not the same thing! Just cuz you're "gay" doesnt necessarily mean you identify with the opposite sex. Gay men are STILL Men, even though they prefer to f*ck other men instead of women. |
You can't argue ant-individual. You can't argue pursuit of happiness. Anyone can argue these issues based on anything. It won't make them right because they bring them up.
A gay man that acts straight is still not a straight man. No one is saying that a married woman won't fix cars in a muscle shirt.
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greenblue
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Joined: Mar 26, 2007
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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Speaking of men and women bodies, well I kinda like the idea of changing bodies, like a telepathic kinda way, transfering my mind into a woman's body, that would be very interesting 
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We all dream; we do not understand our dreams, yet we act as if nothing strange goes on in our sleep minds, strange at least by comparison with the logical, purposeful doings of our minds when we are awake. -Erich Fromm |
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Griff
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 17, 2006
Posts: 1615
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| I still favor the free ectoplasm idea, though. |
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D1nk0
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 12, 2007
Age: 29
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: | | And that doesn't mean anyone should find it acceptable. |
Why not? You see oscuria, I personally dong give a sh1t about social norms because as you know quite well I am very different from other people and so my interests and societies interests are NOT in agreement!
| oscuria wrote: |
| D1nk0 wrote: | WHY is gay marriage such a controversial issue here on WP? To those who oppose the legalization of gay marriage I say this: WHAT ABOUT THE PERSUIT OF HAPPINESS?? Opposing gay marriage AFAIC is ANTI-INDIVIDUAL! It says that individuals who seek to do something in the persuit of their own happiness should NOT be legally allowed to do it because it defies the social norms...Thats ASSININE!
MIGHT I ADD: Sexual orientation and *gender identity* are Not the same thing! Just cuz you're "gay" doesnt necessarily mean you identify with the opposite sex. Gay men are STILL Men, even though they prefer to f*ck other men instead of women. |
You can't argue ant-individual. You can't argue pursuit of happiness. Anyone can argue these issues based on anything. It won't make them right because they bring them up.
A gay man that acts straight is still not a straight man. No one is saying that a married woman won't fix cars in a muscle shirt. |
That my friend, is nothing more than a Baseless assertion. |
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greenblue
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | greenblue wrote: | | iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | Regardless of the label, symbol, or whatever, it is all the same to me. |
How gender identity and sexual orientation are the same to you?
I know of one transgendered woman who likes men. |
I just heard an interview with a psychiatrist who says he treats sex-change patients who feel they made a mistake in deciding to have the sex-change. So why should we assume that transgendered feelings are permanent?
Such a conclusion is just assumed, without thought of the possibility of latent heterosexuality. If there is such a thing as latent homosexuality, why wouldn't there also be latent heterosexuality?
See, people don't ask these questions before advocating people take up all these radical new identities based on how they are feeling at the moment. No, just classify yourself a woman with a penis, and then realize later: "Oops!  I don't like being called 'miss'!" |
I see this problem with parakeet's post, "it's all the same to me", now, I can say this comes from ignorance about the subject, why, because refusing to accept it, refusing to know or gain more accurate information about it, because of the stigma transgendered people have, some people just don't want to know, and they want to ignore it.
But trying to see this as objective as possible we can, it is different, I know that sexuality is not as simple as some people want to put it, a lot of sexual issues do exist, some have fetishes, preferences, gender identity and sexual orientation, they don't have to be confused, as they both are different things, not all gays are neccesarily feminine, not all lesbians are necessarily masculine, not all transgendered women are necessarily attracted to women, not all transgendered men are necessarily attracted to men. The problem is with stereotypes when people asume it is always the case, then again, we know from history that ignorance has had bad consecuences, sadly.
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We all dream; we do not understand our dreams, yet we act as if nothing strange goes on in our sleep minds, strange at least by comparison with the logical, purposeful doings of our minds when we are awake. -Erich Fromm |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1966
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| greenblue wrote: | | Speaking of men and women bodies, well I kinda like the idea of changing bodies, like a telepathic kinda way, transfering my mind into a woman's body, that would be very interesting |
Reminds of the tale of the crypts show where there were two lovers who in the moment said to each other "I want your body!" Little did they know that the woman's mad scientist husband was listening/viewing what was happening, drugged them both, decapitated them and sewn their heads into each others body so that the woman now had the man's body, and vice-versa.
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| D1nk0 wrote: |
Why not? You see oscuria, I personally dong give a sh1t about social norms because as you know quite well I am very different from other people and so my interests and societies interests are NOT in agreement!
That my friend, is nothing more than a Baseless assertion. |
I don't know anything about you. Frankly, I've only seen a couple of your posts, and not enough to gather any information.
Your interest is against society, that doesn't mean society is going to change because of you. The same with me, it won't.
Not as baseless as arguing about individuality when there is nothing truly individual.
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1966
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| greenblue wrote: |
I see this problem with parakeet's post, "it's all the same to me", now, I can say this comes from ignorance about the subject, why, because refusing to accept it, refusing to know or gain more accurate information about it, because of the stigma transgendered people have, some people just don't want to know, and they want to ignore it.
But trying to see this as objective as possible we can, it is different, I know that sexuality is not as simple as some people want to put it, a lot of sexual issues do exist, some have fetishes, preferences, gender identity and sexual orientation, they don't have to be confused, as they both are different things, not all gays are neccesarily feminine, not all lesbians are necessarily masculine, not all transgendered women are necessarily attracted to women, not all transgendered men are necessarily attracted to men. The problem is with stereotypes when people asume it is always the case, then again, we know from history that ignorance has had bad consecuences, sadly. |
See. I won't speak for them, but the part "It's all the same to me" makes sense. Why? Because even if they feel that way it wont make a difference. Yes, it is refusing to acknowledge the feelings of the person, but it won't matter. There is a limit to how humane a person can be towards the wants of people. It has nothing to do with trying to be cruel, ignorant, etc. It has to do with giving up principles the person has. There is not going to be a middle-path in this matter.
I didn't read your whole post so I'm probably off 
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iamnotaparakeet
Venator draconum
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Age: 22
Posts: 10723
Location: Insula internicivum draconum.
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: | | greenblue wrote: |
I see this problem with parakeet's post, "it's all the same to me", now, I can say this comes from ignorance about the subject, why, because refusing to accept it, refusing to know or gain more accurate information about it, because of the stigma transgendered people have, some people just don't want to know, and they want to ignore it.
But trying to see this as objective as possible we can, it is different, I know that sexuality is not as simple as some people want to put it, a lot of sexual issues do exist, some have fetishes, preferences, gender identity and sexual orientation, they don't have to be confused, as they both are different things, not all gays are neccesarily feminine, not all lesbians are necessarily masculine, not all transgendered women are necessarily attracted to women, not all transgendered men are necessarily attracted to men. The problem is with stereotypes when people asume it is always the case, then again, we know from history that ignorance has had bad consecuences, sadly. |
See. I won't speak for them, but the part "It's all the same to me" makes sense. Why? Because even if they feel that way it wont make a difference. Yes, it is refusing to acknowledge the feelings of the person, but it won't matter. There is a limit to how humane a person can be towards the wants of people. It has nothing to do with trying to be cruel, ignorant, etc. It has to do with giving up principles the person has. There is not going to be a middle-path in this matter.
I didn't read your whole post so I'm probably off |
Thanks Oscuria.
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skafather84
Platypus God
Joined: Mar 21, 2006
Age: 23
Posts: 4475
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Griff wrote: | | This discussion was derailed from the outset. One of the things that I was trying to get at with the OP was that gay rights initiatives should begin focusing on more pressing issues, such as the persecution of homosexuals and other such minorities in foreign countries. Shouldn't we cut trade with countries that persecute people over this sort of thing on a regular basis? Shouldn't there be more international pressure on countries that practice oppressive "sodomy laws"? For some reason, it escapes many people's notice that innocent human beings are being murdered or otherwise ruined in countries that exercise such practices. Shouldn't the Polish have been chastised for their incursions into the rights of homosexuals in their own country? Shouldn't they have been cut off from the EU over the direction they seem to be going in with it? Instead, they have been appeased. This is horrible, and something needs to be done about it. Future gay rights initiatives should be directed at drawing more public attention to more serious issues. Gay marriage is inevitable. We've won that battle, and now we're just waiting about for a few senior citizens to kick the pail. We have bigger fish to fry. |
speaking of...a small semi-happy (not really happy but maybe a little glaad) ending related to the OP.
a 19 year old from iran was granted the right to stay in the UK under fear of persecution and potentially death.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7411706.stm |
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greenblue
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: | | greenblue wrote: |
I see this problem with parakeet's post, "it's all the same to me", now, I can say this comes from ignorance about the subject, why, because refusing to accept it, refusing to know or gain more accurate information about it, because of the stigma transgendered people have, some people just don't want to know, and they want to ignore it.
But trying to see this as objective as possible we can, it is different, I know that sexuality is not as simple as some people want to put it, a lot of sexual issues do exist, some have fetishes, preferences, gender identity and sexual orientation, they don't have to be confused, as they both are different things, not all gays are neccesarily feminine, not all lesbians are necessarily masculine, not all transgendered women are necessarily attracted to women, not all transgendered men are necessarily attracted to men. The problem is with stereotypes when people asume it is always the case, then again, we know from history that ignorance has had bad consecuences, sadly. |
See. I won't speak for them, but the part "It's all the same to me" makes sense. Why? Because even if they feel that way it wont make a difference. Yes, it is refusing to acknowledge the feelings of the person, but it won't matter. There is a limit to how humane a person can be towards the wants of people. It has nothing to do with trying to be cruel, ignorant, etc. It has to do with giving up principles the person has. There is not going to be a middle-path in this matter.
I didn't read your whole post so I'm probably off |
It IS ignorance, I say this, because I was ignorant about transgenderism a while ago, and I used to think that it must have had a conexion with sexual orientation, and that all gay men and women where somehow transgendered, even though I felt sympathetic with them, I indeed was ignorant, I may still be a little, there are however some things that are not clear for me, like social gender roles and gender identity, and if they are related and how and stuff.
Nevertheless, I try not to make generalization like you seem to do, based on dislike or disgust or considering it inmoral, etc. so my point has value, refusing to accept and not wanting to know. I have seen in real life that a lot of people don't know about it, and confused both things, because, well, they just didn't want to know. More education is what we need.
People refused to believe Galileo because what he said, was considered blasphemy, I'm quite sure they didn't want to know and to even hear about it.
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We all dream; we do not understand our dreams, yet we act as if nothing strange goes on in our sleep minds, strange at least by comparison with the logical, purposeful doings of our minds when we are awake. -Erich Fromm
Last edited by greenblue on Wed May 21, 2008 5:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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greenblue
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: | | See. I won't speak for them, but the part "It's all the same to me" makes sense. Why? Because even if they feel that way it wont make a difference. Yes, it is refusing to acknowledge the feelings of the person, but it won't matter. |
It is about facts and accuracy over what it is believed, traditionally or something else, so it does matter, and it does more justice.
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We all dream; we do not understand our dreams, yet we act as if nothing strange goes on in our sleep minds, strange at least by comparison with the logical, purposeful doings of our minds when we are awake. -Erich Fromm |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1966
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| greenblue wrote: |
It IS ignorance, I say this, because I was ignorant about transgenderism a while ago, and I used to think that it must have had a conexion with sexual orientation, and that all gay men and women where somehow transgendered, even though I felt sympathetic with them, I indeed was ignorant, I may still be a little, there are however some things that are not clear for me, like social gender roles and gender identity, and if they are related and how and stuff.
Nevertheless, I try not to make generalization like you seem to do, based on dislike or disgust or considering it inmoral, etc. so my point has value, refusing to accept and not wanting to know. I have seen in real life that a lot of people don't know about it, and confused both things, because, well, they just didn't want to know. More education is what we need.
People refused to believe Galileo because what he said, was considered blasphemy, I'm quite sure they didn't want to know and to even hear about it. |
Actually, ignorant means not informed. A person can still be uncaring and unemotional towards that which he (or she) will find little sympathy against, it won't matter how much education a person receives. I am aware that a person might feel "lost in their bodies" but that alone is not enough for me to accept it.
I knew of a classmate who was very effeminate, but I don't believe he was gay. This still to me seemed an incorrect way for a male to live. If my brother or son were to even want to become a woman, it would be something I could never accept. I know he is not a female, he should know this too. Nothing can change this fact, and I'm at a point where I cannot be convinced. However, I have made this point many times: A person who cannot accept another person's lifestyle or choices does not imply that he hates that person. If a friend or relative was a prostitute I would abhor her practice, that does not mean I would hate her personally, however.
Galileo spoke of the unseen and that which was considered unreal at the time, transgenderism is all too real and all too visible.
These things have always been a part of society, but to this day it is still unacceptable to a great deal of people.
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fallensamurai
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Oct 06, 2007
Posts: 56
Location: NH
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| I am a transsexual Aspie and I have one thing to say to ocscuria. Please do the entire world a favor and drop dead! People like you were responsible for the holocaust and pretty much every other act of violent intolerance in history. You do not deserve to be considered human! My disgust for you and your self righteous fantasies of a leave it to beaver world have no limit. Just change your name to Adolf Hitler now and let the world know what a bigoted a$$hole you are. |
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D1nk0
Phoenix
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Age: 29
Posts: 1589
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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I guess its too bad that the world and the people in it dont live up to your expectations about how things oughta be..........
......Tough SH1T Buddy, GET USED TO IT 
| oscuria wrote: | | greenblue wrote: |
It IS ignorance, I say this, because I was ignorant about transgenderism a while ago, and I used to think that it must have had a conexion with sexual orientation, and that all gay men and women where somehow transgendered, even though I felt sympathetic with them, I indeed was ignorant, I may still be a little, there are however some things that are not clear for me, like social gender roles and gender identity, and if they are related and how and stuff.
Nevertheless, I try not to make generalization like you seem to do, based on dislike or disgust or considering it inmoral, etc. so my point has value, refusing to accept and not wanting to know. I have seen in real life that a lot of people don't know about it, and confused both things, because, well, they just didn't want to know. More education is what we need.
People refused to believe Galileo because what he said, was considered blasphemy, I'm quite sure they didn't want to know and to even hear about it. |
Actually, ignorant means not informed. A person can still be uncaring and unemotional towards that which he (or she) will find little sympathy against, it won't matter how much education a person receives. I am aware that a person might feel "lost in their bodies" but that alone is not enough for me to accept it.
I knew of a classmate who was very effeminate, but I don't believe he was gay. This still to me seemed an incorrect way for a male to live. If my brother or son were to even want to become a woman, it would be something I could never accept. I know he is not a female, he should know this too. Nothing can change this fact, and I'm at a point where I cannot be convinced. However, I have made this point many times: A person who cannot accept another person's lifestyle or choices does not imply that he hates that person. If a friend or relative was a prostitute I would abhor her practice, that does not mean I would hate her personally, however.
Galileo spoke of the unseen and that which was considered unreal at the time, transgenderism is all too real and all too visible.
These things have always been a part of society, but to this day it is still unacceptable to a great deal of people. |
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