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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1930
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 Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | Before we grant someone a right, we must first ascertain if it is a right or in fact a privelidge. It cannot be a right just because you desire it to be. All people have the right to trial and due process within the legal system, straight and gay alike. We all have the right to religion, free speech, and free association. But to marriage? |
I agree but many here believe that rights whatever they may be are to be given to all.
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sarolie
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
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Joined: Jan 16, 2007
Posts: 65
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: | | Honestly, there is nothing that I can say which wasn't said in my previous post found above. |
I still don't understand why you oppose homosexual marriage. You're just afraid that if gay marriage was legal that would give people the incentive to make other things legal as well?
| oscuria wrote: | | I'd be willing to answer other questions however. |
Go ahead. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1930
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| sarolie wrote: | | oscuria wrote: | | Honestly, there is nothing that I can say which wasn't said in my previous post found above. |
I still don't understand why you oppose homosexual marriage. You're just afraid that if gay marriage was legal that would give people the incentive to make other things legal as well?
| oscuria wrote: | | I'd be willing to answer other questions however. |
Go ahead. |
Fear? No. I just don't find it to be an acceptable practice.
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slowmutant
Templar Knight
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 4877
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You're just afraid that if gay marriage was legal that would give people the incentive to make other things legal as well? |
What "other things" do you have in mind? Pederasty, necrophilia, incest? |
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sarolie
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
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Joined: Jan 16, 2007
Posts: 65
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | Before we grant someone a right, we must first ascertain if it is a right or in fact a privilege. It cannot be a right just because you desire it to be. |
Why should some people be given privileges but not others?
Something should not be a privilege just cause some people desire it to be, but if some people are given a right, everyone should.
| slowmutant wrote: | | All people have the right to trial and due process within the legal system, straight and gay alike. We all have the right to religion, free speech, and free association. But to marriage? |
Why not? Many people are given the right to religion but don't feel that right is necessary. Same goes for marriage. If some people are given the right to marriage, everyone should, even if not everyone given that feels like either their own or other people's marriage is necessary. |
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slowmutant
Templar Knight
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 4877
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| An unnecessary, totally optional "right" would never be passed by an administrative body. If it was something you might pass up, like a haircut or a cheese sandwich, no politician would fight to have it passed as law. |
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sarolie
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
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Joined: Jan 16, 2007
Posts: 65
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | What "other things" do you have in mind? Pederasty, necrophilia, incest? |
Well, a previous post of his suggested he may be predicting such things to be made legal.
| slowmutant wrote: | | An unnecessary, totally optional "right" would never be passed by an administrative body. If it was something you might pass up, like a haircut or a cheese sandwich, no politician would fight to have it passed as law. |
Oh yeah? Click: Dumb Laws (Well most of those are dumb things that are illegal but it's definitely not necessary for them to be.)
Anyway, you're saying that marriage is necessary and mandatory? |
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slowmutant
Templar Knight
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 4877
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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Marriage is not mandatory, nor is it unnecessary. No one has ever faced legal sanctions for failing to elope. It's not mandatory like paying taxes or registering your vehicle.
Here in Canada, gay people can get married. Not just legally, but spiritually as well. And I'm all for it, provided that there is no fallout for society. The family must be protected. Family values should not be altogether tossed out. Some things are worth preserving.
Gay couples will obviously have non-nuclear adoptive families, which already exist within hetero families. The biggest concern will be the child with two mothers or two fathers. How wil this affect society in the long run?
Will society be improved or damaged by same-sex unions? |
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Phagocyte
Low-Functioning NT
Joined: Oct 16, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 1572
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | Phagocyte wrote: | | sarolie wrote: | | slowmutant wrote: | | Not necessarily. |
| Ragtime wrote: | How is gay marriage a human right?
That claim doesn't get any less bizarre the more I hear it. |
*Marriage is a right any two consenting adults have.
Wouldn't you feel discriminated against if it were illegal for you and your partner to get married?
The claim that it's wrong for two people to get married just cause they're the same gender doesn't get any less bizarre the more I hear it. |
-QFT. Sarolie wins at logic. |
I didn't realize political correctness was the same thing as logic. |
I don't know why so many of you conservatives paint the picture that if homosexuals marry it's the same as if they came in on you while your family was having a Bible reading and sodomize in front of you. Even if there was a proper "family unit," gay marriage is not going to threaten it. I'm not gay, and I'll assume that you aren't. It doesn't effect us.
Let me be honest; I am no liberal by any stretch of the imagination (I'm much more of a libertarian). So my opinion is uninhibited by any sort of partisan bias. But the fact is, the liberal stance on this particular issue is the logical one. Just like abortion, this is one issue that the liberals will eventually and undoubtedly win. Mark my words.
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1930
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Phagocyte wrote: | I don't know why so many of you conservatives paint the picture that if homosexuals marry it's the same as if they came in on you while your family was having a Bible reading and sodomize in front of you. Even if there was a proper "family unit," gay marriage is not going to threaten it. I'm not gay, and I'll assume that you aren't. It doesn't effect us.
Let me be honest; I am no liberal by any stretch of the imagination (I'm much more of a libertarian). So my opinion is uninhibited by any sort of partisan bias. But the fact is, the liberal stance on this particular issue is the logical one. Just like abortion, this is one issue that the liberals will eventually and undoubtedly win. Mark my words. |
I must ask: In today's society which values progress, why is abortion seen as a "step forward"?
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sarolie
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
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Joined: Jan 16, 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | Gay couples will obviously have non-nuclear adoptive families, which already exist within hetero families. The biggest concern will be the child with two mothers or two fathers. How wil this affect society in the long run?
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Don't those already exist? I'm pretty sure there are lots of gay couples with children who haven't really at all improved or damaged society. Even if there aren't that many, it's sexist to say two people of the same gender can't raise a child together. If any two people in question love each other and their children and are responsible, I'm sure they could. |
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slowmutant
Templar Knight
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 4877
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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Just the stigma of having gay parents could mess a kid up. It has, and it continues to. How much time must pass, how many generations, before the stigma goes away completely?
Are kids with gay parents always happy & well-adjusted? |
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sarolie
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
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Joined: Jan 16, 2007
Posts: 65
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: | | I must ask: In today's society which values progress, why is abortion seen as a "step forward"? |
Children should be raised by parents who wanted them and are ready to care for them. Making it so that is the only way children are raised is a "step forward". Also, making it so that people don't have to drop out of school in order to raise their children is a "step forward". |
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sarolie
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
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Joined: Jan 16, 2007
Posts: 65
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | Just the stigma of having gay parents could mess a kid up. It has, and it continues to. How much time must pass, how many generations, before the stigma goes away completely? |
I'm sure the "stigma" of having parents makes lots of kids feel messed up. Who cares about the stigma?
| slowmutant wrote: | | Are kids with gay parents always happy & well-adjusted? |
Parents don't create a kid's life, just teach them basic things. Kids only really need their parents until a certain age, and if when they're older they realize there's something they want to change about themselves or their lives, they can figure it out and change it. If someone's parent's sexual orientation affected to them to the point where they don't feel happy and well-adjusted, that's their problem.
EDIT: Though I kind of agree with you, but if gay couples want to have children no one has the right to prevent them really. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1930
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| sarolie wrote: | | oscuria wrote: | | I must ask: In today's society which values progress, why is abortion seen as a "step forward"? |
Children should be raised by parents who wanted them and are ready to care for them. Making it so that is the only way children are raised is a "step forward". Also, making it so that people don't have to drop out of school in order to raise their children is a "step forward". |
I find it an archaic, barbaric act which is a step backwards in humanity.
The life of a child is worth less than the possibility of finishing school? School can be postponed, just as bringing children into this world. That is a horrible excuse for an abortion. It is backwards in principal, in thinking, and in action.
And this is considered progress, the "Me" factor. How can these people care for the life of others when they support the destruction of life itself? What is even more ironic is that these people are often against the death penalty.
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