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Kalister1
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 09, 2007
Posts: 2882
Location: California
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 Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | I've seen several posts on this thread with people supporting the idea of AS being a learning disability on the basis that some Aspies struggle with certain subjects.
Am I the only one who sees a problem with this line of reasoning? Most NT's are incapable of anything beyond basic math, and the writing skills I've seen from my NT older sisters, both of whom are well above average in intelligence, have not impressed me. Struggling with specific material is NOT the same as having a learning disability. If it was, then you would have to say that all stupid people (even all average people, and close to all above-average intelligence people) would have a learning disability. |
Thank you for putting my ideas into the most lucid form possible. I find you are like a smarter me 
:Zombifies you and steals your brain:
MINE!
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curiouslittleboy
Deinonychus
Joined: Jun 07, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 328
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | Basically, what I meant was that "even" NT's, who are not considered to have a learning disability, often struggle with academics. Not earning straight A's in all AP classes≠a learning disability. |
True, true. I'm aware of that. n.n*
And while I'm at it, regarding your last sentence, tis ok, dude. XD
I'm getting over my inferiority complex and becoming more and more confident.
For some good reasons:
While I DID have to stay longer in HS, still, I was definitely pulling my weight. :3
I graduated in the top 2%-5% (I haven't gotten my final transcript so I don't know EXACTLY where I stand yet.)
And that, I'm also one of the top graduating MALE seniors, if not THE highest ranking male senior in my class. XD
The class I did graduate from was the biggest and best my school has ever had.
The school itself is in the top 2% of American HS's nationwide. :3
The class rocks hard. :3
With a staggering 75% of the students making honor roll.
And, while I do dispise folks (looks directly into your eyes) who are smarter/more mature/more independent/and/or that I just precieve as better than me, still,
espeically on intellectual scale, I find that most of my friends are said people. XD
I see it as I'm a mental masocist. As most (if not all) other people who are less intellectually just too boring to be around. XD
Back on topic, yeah, that's true. Granted, they often have the social skills to make up for it.
Hence what I meant by the idea of AS being a "social" LD. XD
again, not literally. |
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curiouslittleboy
Deinonychus
Joined: Jun 07, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 328
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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@Orwell: And while I'm at it, I disagreed with your ideas, at least in the way they were presented, because at least how I interpretted them, it seems to mean that the only smart people are people with aspergers...
This is also problematic.
The majority of smart people tend to have the highest paying jobs (Law, Medicine, Engineering, etc)
Yet, from what I understand, only about 10%-20% of aspies have jobs they are qualified for (via their education). |
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Kalister1
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 09, 2007
Posts: 2882
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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The work place equates social skills as having a much higher value than anything a pedagogical institution can bestow upon you (to an extent).
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3208
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| twoshots wrote: | | In which case at first blush it seems to me that the distinction between a learning disability and just being specifically incompetent is just a matter of severity. |
And I dislike this classification method because you draw an arbitrary line around which the socially acceptable feelings towards someone switch from contempt and letting them fail to pity and giving them extra help. Where do you draw that line, and why?
| Kalister1 wrote: | :Zombifies you and steals your brain:
MINE! |
You can have it, I don't put it to very good use anyways.
| curiouslittleboy wrote: | | And, while I do dispise folks (looks directly into your eyes) who are smarter/more mature/more independent/and/or that I just precieve as better than me |
Don't be so down on yourself, especially not in such comparisons to me. I'm 18 and still have never had a girlfriend, don't have my driver's license yet, managed to embarrass myself in front of my high school class when I was presented the valedictorian medal because I was too oblivious to know what I was supposed to be doing, etc. Intelligence, maturity, and independence don't always come as a package, adn I certainly would never claim to be better than you or anyone else.
| curiouslittleboy wrote: | | @Orwell: And while I'm at it, I disagreed with your ideas, at least in the way they were presented, because at least how I interpretted them, it seems to mean that the only smart people are people with aspergers... |
Not at all. The majority of smart people are NT, as are the majority of people in general. I didn't mean to imply that only Aspies are intelligent, simply that everyone eventually runs into something they find difficult, and that doesn't automatically make them disabled.
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Kalister1
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 09, 2007
Posts: 2882
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: |
Not at all. The majority of smart people are NT, as are the majority of people in general. I didn't mean to imply that only Aspies are intelligent, simply that everyone eventually runs into something they find difficult, and that doesn't automatically make them disabled. |
ARE YOU READING MY MIND?!!!!
:get out of there!!:
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curiouslittleboy
Deinonychus
Joined: Jun 07, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 328
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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@Orwell: oooooooooh, ok...so it was just a communication issue. XD
Ok, that I can agree with. 
Kinda reminds me of how people try to discredit Einstein just because he struggled trying to find a Grand unification theory (or whatever reason they have). |
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Orwell
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Age: 18
Posts: 3208
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| curiouslittleboy wrote: | | @Orwell: oooooooooh, ok...so it was just a communication issue. XD |
Woot for Aspie communication skills. Took about three or four tries before we managed to understand each other.
| curiouslittleboy wrote: | | Kinda reminds me of how people try to discredit Einstein just because he struggled trying to find a Grand unification theory (or whatever reason they have). |
A friend of mine seems to take great pleasure, any time Newton's name is mentioned, in pointing out "Newton was wrong." Unless prompted, he leaves it at that. If questioned, he will refer to the fact that, contrary to Newton's claims, gravity is NOT an instantaneous force.  The guy pretty much invented calculus and a good chunk of physics, I think we can forgive him a mistake or two.
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Kalister1
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 09, 2007
Posts: 2882
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | curiouslittleboy wrote: | | @Orwell: oooooooooh, ok...so it was just a communication issue. XD |
Woot for Aspie communication skills. Took about three or four tries before we managed to understand each other.
| curiouslittleboy wrote: | | Kinda reminds me of how people try to discredit Einstein just because he struggled trying to find a Grand unification theory (or whatever reason they have). |
A friend of mine seems to take great pleasure, any time Newton's name is mentioned, in pointing out "Newton was wrong." Unless prompted, he leaves it at that. If questioned, he will refer to the fact that, contrary to Newton's claims, gravity is NOT an instantaneous force. The guy pretty much invented calculus and a good chunk of physics, I think we can forgive him a mistake or two. |
:points at Leibniz:
Actually, Leibniz was proved wrong too, such as Schopenhauer and Voltaire totally making him look like a fool.
Still invented Calculus (independently of Newton)
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curiouslittleboy
Deinonychus
Joined: Jun 07, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 328
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | curiouslittleboy wrote: | | @Orwell: oooooooooh, ok...so it was just a communication issue. XD |
Woot for Aspie communication skills. Took about three or four tries before we managed to understand each other.
| curiouslittleboy wrote: | | Kinda reminds me of how people try to discredit Einstein just because he struggled trying to find a Grand unification theory (or whatever reason they have). |
A friend of mine seems to take great pleasure, any time Newton's name is mentioned, in pointing out "Newton was wrong." Unless prompted, he leaves it at that. If questioned, he will refer to the fact that, contrary to Newton's claims, gravity is NOT an instantaneous force. The guy pretty much invented calculus and a good chunk of physics, I think we can forgive him a mistake or two. |
Re: Communication skills, don't worry dude, I'm used to it, trying to communicate to NT's....like pulling teeth. ><
At least we finally reached a consensus.
Re: This friend, hm...yah, I have a few like that. XD and yes, as my physics teachers have ALWAYS told me, it's the main point/understanding not a few piddly mistakes that's important. |
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Orwell
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Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3208
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| Kalister1 wrote: |
:points at Leibniz:
Actually, Leibniz was proved wrong too, such as Schopenhauer and Voltaire totally making him look like a fool.
Still invented Calculus (independently of Newton) |
Lies. Everyone knows that Leibniz plagiarized all his work from Newton and then tried to make it look like Newton was the one who copied. We all know Newton was a BAMF, he is the true inventor of all that is good in math. 
Just kidding in that whole post, in case it wasn't clear. They both came up with calc, but Leibniz probably did a better job of it. Newton's still cooler though, because his either field was physics instead of philosophy.
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curiouslittleboy
Deinonychus
Joined: Jun 07, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 328
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:05 am Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | Kalister1 wrote: |
:points at Leibniz:
Actually, Leibniz was proved wrong too, such as Schopenhauer and Voltaire totally making him look like a fool.
Still invented Calculus (independently of Newton) |
Lies. Everyone knows that Leibniz plagiarized all his work from Newton and then tried to make it look like Newton was the one who copied. We all know Newton was a BAMF, he is the true inventor of all that is good in math.
Just kidding in that whole post, in case it wasn't clear. They both came up with calc, but Leibniz probably did a better job of it. Newton's still cooler though, because his either field was physics instead of philosophy. |
Even more fun is that the version of calculus we use today is Leibniz's. |
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twoshots
The Moos of Derision
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 1412
Location: NJ
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And I dislike this classification method because you draw an arbitrary line around which the socially acceptable feelings towards someone switch from contempt and letting them fail to pity and giving them extra help. Where do you draw that line, and why? |
Well, you would approach the problem in a few ways.
1) Is it continuously varying? People may vary in ability from one subject to another, but non-autistics are pretty even in general. Furthermore, as per the definition, we would on the one hand ignore incompetence which seemed to be due to environmental factors or general stupidity. The definition also states:
| Quote: | | These disorders are intrinsic to the individual and presumed to be due to Central Nervous System Dysfunction. |
Now, I am uncertain whether or not the line between pathology and normality is well defined, but I don't think it's prima facie obvious one way or the other (although I gravitate towards the idea that it varies continuously)
2) Simply because it is fuzzy doesn't mean it's nonexistent. It may be inexpedient over all to try to cater to everyone's problems and specific difficulties. The cutoff may be arbitrary inasmuch as it is not a reflection of the actual difficulties between the pathological and the merely inept, but if you're going to try to help people of a given style, you're going to have to make distinctions somewhere or you're never going to get anything done.
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Orwell
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Age: 18
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Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| twoshots wrote: | Now, I am uncertain whether or not the line between pathology and normality is well defined, but I don't think it's prima facie obvious one way or the other (although I gravitate towards the idea that it varies continuously)
2) Simply because it is fuzzy doesn't mean it's nonexistent. It may be inexpedient over all to try to cater to everyone's problems and specific difficulties. The cutoff may be arbitrary inasmuch as it is not a reflection of the actual difficulties between the pathological and the merely inept, but if you're going to try to help people of a given style, you're going to have to make distinctions somewhere or you're never going to get anything done. |
Well, when you go by that method someone gets screwed. I may be a little bitter, because I was that "someone" when I was younger. Judged to be incapable of performing up to par, but not "severely affected" enough to receive any help. Either you help out people who struggle, or you go social darwinist. There's no reason for a double standard where you are permitted to hate the people who are performing slightly below average but must cater to those who are well below average. It's hypocritical.
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curiouslittleboy
Deinonychus
Joined: Jun 07, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 328
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | twoshots wrote: | Now, I am uncertain whether or not the line between pathology and normality is well defined, but I don't think it's prima facie obvious one way or the other (although I gravitate towards the idea that it varies continuously)
2) Simply because it is fuzzy doesn't mean it's nonexistent. It may be inexpedient over all to try to cater to everyone's problems and specific difficulties. The cutoff may be arbitrary inasmuch as it is not a reflection of the actual difficulties between the pathological and the merely inept, but if you're going to try to help people of a given style, you're going to have to make distinctions somewhere or you're never going to get anything done. |
Well, when you go by that method someone gets screwed. I may be a little bitter, because I was that "someone" when I was younger. |
Same. still am in certain ways.. |
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