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Macbeth
Thane of Bar and Cellar
Joined: May 28, 2007
Posts: 1267
Location: UK Doncaster
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 Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: | | Macbeth wrote: | People seem to be missing my point rather badly. Islam is a YOUNG religion. The stage it is passing through now is the same stage christianity passed through when it was still holding crusades. When it was still having inquisitions.. when church and state were effectively one and the same. When the law reflected religious morality more than any degree of common sense. These things are now mostly a thing of the past for christian nations. When islam has had another 300 or so years runtime, it may well have got over the worst excesses of fundamentalism and jihad and all the bollocks the world just does not need. I'm not saying that their civilisation need to mimic ours, or embrace all of our values, or our religion or even have Mcdonalds and Tesco ... It just needs to get out of the "holy war/women are satan" mindset, and the desire amongst parts of its following to press these beliefs on everybody.
Effectively "chill out." |
And you seem to be missing the point that you are speaking of Saudi Arabia.
Lebanon? Dubai? Sure. Saudi Arabia? Pakistan? No.
Jihad is fundamental to Islam. Violent jihad just gets the attention.
I don't see it happening. Islam is not Christianity and as such will not follow in their footsteps.
The people prefer to live in that lifestyle. If they didn't they wouldn't be voting for Islamic politicians.
There is no such thing as a Christian nation anymore. It is a secular country whose population happen to call themselves Christian. |
Because we seperated church and state.
You assume the people prefer it that way.. how much option have they actually got? How much voting power in those oppressed or ill-served by islam? How many non-Islamic politicians does Saudi have? Important people who are experts in this sort of thing were adamant that women werent interested in politics and should be more interested in hats and cookery at the start of the 19th century. Enter the suffragettes, and the female vote... Do saudi women have the political voice to make changes?
What I am saying is: In 300 years, a lot can change for a religion. Christianity mellowed substantially in that time, so why cant Islam? There are already moderate muslims, so its not exactly a ludcrous llogical leap to make.
_________________
"Mindset of an aristocrat, budget of a tramp" ZGM
"I dont have to know I'm your first if I already know I'm the best" ZGM
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 57
Posts: 6834
Location: The Emerald Forest
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:31 am Post subject: Re: A Saudi first: Gender-mixed Mozart concert |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | sinsboldly wrote: |
...another indication that this strict Muslim kingdom is looking to open up to the rest of the world. |
After we apologize to them for those 15 deaths on Sept 11th, right?
/sarcastic protrayal of how liberals think |
judge not that ye be not judged. . .
Merle |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1930
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| Macbeth wrote: |
Because we seperated church and state.
You assume the people prefer it that way.. how much option have they actually got? How much voting power in those oppressed or ill-served by islam? How many non-Islamic politicians does Saudi have? Important people who are experts in this sort of thing were adamant that women werent interested in politics and should be more interested in hats and cookery at the start of the 19th century. Enter the suffragettes, and the female vote... Do saudi women have the political voice to make changes?
What I am saying is: In 300 years, a lot can change for a religion. Christianity mellowed substantially in that time, so why cant Islam? There are already moderate muslims, so its not exactly a ludcrous llogical leap to make. |
I "assume" because it is true. Speak to people from Saudia, they'll tell you it's a beautiful country. "The women have all they want." "I didn't have to do anything, and everything is affordable." The last quote from a fellow female college student. Many willingly put on the ayaba/niqab, and look at what happened in Turkey. Hijab was banned until it the law was repealed overwhelmingly last year. I don't agree with KSA's strict enforcement of the niqab, but I'm sure removing the law wouldn't make much of a difference. Also, men and women are not suppose to touch each other if they're not related. I even recall seeing a video of a Saudi woman refusing to shake the hands of King Abdullah.
Think about who put into power Hamas and Hizbullah? Look into the elections of Iraq. The west wont understand it because we've lived under secularism for a long time now. Like i posted earlier, there is nothing Christian in a Christian nation, there is plenty of Islamic rule in an Islamic country.
There is a very big difference in muslim practice compared to christian practice. The law is very based on the religion. To separate the laws is to separate the religion from the people. If anything, they'll become more lenient on the punishments, but it is not going to have a revolution like the west faced in the 60s--and you'll truly not read or see any blasphemous material (considering there are blasphemy laws in many of these countries). Definitely not in a country like Yemen. Now, I don't get why you keep mentioning that it is a young religion. Baha'i is less than 200 years old and has more progression than others. Sikhism too. The difference is that they do not have a nation in which it is the state religion.
If you want to see secularism, look into Syria. They're definitely not moving into an Islamization of the country any time soon, especially not after Hama. |
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Khan_Sama
Sea Gull
Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Age: 19
Posts: 210
Location: India
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: A Saudi first: Gender-mixed Mozart concert |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | sinsboldly wrote: |
...another indication that this strict Muslim kingdom is looking to open up to the rest of the world. |
After we apologize to them for those 15 deaths on Sept 11th, right?
/sarcastic protrayal of how liberals think |
6 of the "hijackers" are still alive, my friend. The list of passengers on all 4 flights contained no Arab or Muslim names. The WTC was constructed to handle multiple Airplane impacts. There was no debris in the Pennsylvania crash. 9/11 is just another incident that was created to create a war, war is a very profitable situation. For example, before Pearl Harbour, over 90% of the American population wanted nothing to do with the war. After Pearl Harbour, 1 million men enlisted into the armed forces.
Anyway, back on topic, my view of the KSA will never change. It's a wahaabist monarchy, ruled by pigs who don't mind breaking the laws they enforce. I'm completely against enforcement of wahaabi laws, it's the most extreme form of Islam, and is completely mordern in origin. I spit on the royal family. The law in the KSA is a perfect example of Draconian laws. However, even if these laws were removed, most of their citizens will still continue to maintain their social attitude, which is fine. Enforcing it by force is unethical. |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7392
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: A Saudi first: Gender-mixed Mozart concert |
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| sinsboldly wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | sinsboldly wrote: |
...another indication that this strict Muslim kingdom is looking to open up to the rest of the world. |
After we apologize to them for those 15 deaths on Sept 11th, right?
/sarcastic protrayal of how liberals think |
judge not that ye be not judged. . .
Merle |
Okay.
Now deal with my post, Merle.
_________________
Anyone who is interested in philosophy, the of meaning of life, and answers to our hardest questions, I suggest you check out the free, online mp3 archive of Ravi Zacharias at www.rzim.org. |
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Macbeth
Thane of Bar and Cellar
Joined: May 28, 2007
Posts: 1267
Location: UK Doncaster
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: | | Macbeth wrote: |
Because we seperated church and state.
You assume the people prefer it that way.. how much option have they actually got? How much voting power in those oppressed or ill-served by islam? How many non-Islamic politicians does Saudi have? Important people who are experts in this sort of thing were adamant that women werent interested in politics and should be more interested in hats and cookery at the start of the 19th century. Enter the suffragettes, and the female vote... Do saudi women have the political voice to make changes?
What I am saying is: In 300 years, a lot can change for a religion. Christianity mellowed substantially in that time, so why cant Islam? There are already moderate muslims, so its not exactly a ludcrous llogical leap to make. |
I "assume" because it is true. Speak to people from Saudia, they'll tell you it's a beautiful country. "The women have all they want." "I didn't have to do anything, and everything is affordable." The last quote from a fellow female college student. Many willingly put on the ayaba/niqab, and look at what happened in Turkey. Hijab was banned until it the law was repealed overwhelmingly last year. I don't agree with KSA's strict enforcement of the niqab, but I'm sure removing the law wouldn't make much of a difference. Also, men and women are not suppose to touch each other if they're not related. I even recall seeing a video of a Saudi woman refusing to shake the hands of King Abdullah.
Think about who put into power Hamas and Hizbullah? Look into the elections of Iraq. The west wont understand it because we've lived under secularism for a long time now. Like i posted earlier, there is nothing Christian in a Christian nation, there is plenty of Islamic rule in an Islamic country.
There is a very big difference in muslim practice compared to christian practice. The law is very based on the religion. To separate the laws is to separate the religion from the people. If anything, they'll become more lenient on the punishments, but it is not going to have a revolution like the west faced in the 60s--and you'll truly not read or see any blasphemous material (considering there are blasphemy laws in many of these countries). Definitely not in a country like Yemen. Now, I don't get why you keep mentioning that it is a young religion. Baha'i is less than 200 years old and has more progression than others. Sikhism too. The difference is that they do not have a nation in which it is the state religion.
If you want to see secularism, look into Syria. They're definitely not moving into an Islamization of the country any time soon, especially not after Hama. |
If I'm completely honest with myself, I couldn't really give a monkeys right nut what these people choose to do with their time, except in the areas where it concerns me, and mine, and by extension of that, my choice of religion and government. I simply trust that time and experience will lead them to a path that does not involve trying to ram their own choice of religion down my throat. I have exactly zero desire to follow Islam, or believe that Mohammed is gods chose whatever etc etc.. careface..in much the same way that I have zero desire to follow Christ, God blahdeblah all that crap. I do, however, have sympathy with anyone who does not need that kind of shite in their lives being oppressed or driven to do things they do not desire to do. Regardless of which society is better overall, we live in the west, in broadly christian nations, and are fully aware that women are NOT evil, or satan, or lesser in some way. We know this because we live this. Ergo, they can damn well get over it, live with it, and grow the hell up.
_________________
"Mindset of an aristocrat, budget of a tramp" ZGM
"I dont have to know I'm your first if I already know I'm the best" ZGM
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Khan_Sama
Sea Gull
Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Age: 19
Posts: 210
Location: India
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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If you don't care about anything to do with us, our faith, our laws, and our lifestyle, why post? We're certainly not sending any missionaries to your doorstep.
Btw, what makes you think that we consider women as "evil"? It certainly shows that you have no knowledge whatsoever about our faith, or any faith on that matter. This reminds me of a particular quote - "A little knowledge can be dangerous. Lack of knowledge can be embarrassing." |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1930
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Macbeth wrote: |
If I'm completely honest with myself, I couldn't really give a monkeys right nut what these people choose to do with their time, except in the areas where it concerns me, and mine, and by extension of that, my choice of religion and government. I simply trust that time and experience will lead them to a path that does not involve trying to ram their own choice of religion down my throat. I have exactly zero desire to follow Islam, or believe that Mohammed is gods chose whatever etc etc.. careface..in much the same way that I have zero desire to follow Christ, God blahdeblah all that crap. I do, however, have sympathy with anyone who does not need that kind of shite in their lives being oppressed or driven to do things they do not desire to do. Regardless of which society is better overall, we live in the west, in broadly christian nations, and are fully aware that women are NOT evil, or satan, or lesser in some way. We know this because we live this. Ergo, they can damn well get over it, live with it, and grow the hell up. |
That's the thing. It doesn't concern you because you are not living there. You're not being forced to do anything.
Islam:
No alcohol.
No drugs.
No revealing or tight clothing.
No. No. No.
Christianity at a point was like that, until the renaissance where the people began to value money more than religion.
To clarify, women aren't viewed as being evil in Islam. There just cannot be a mixing of the sexes. There's a reason why.
I am pretty sure that the people there enjoy living under Islamic law. They've been living that way for a very long time. |
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Khan_Sama
Sea Gull
Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Age: 19
Posts: 210
Location: India
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | To clarify, women aren't viewed as being evil in Islam. There just cannot be a mixing of the sexes. There's a reason why. |
Actually, mixing of the sexes is considered alright by all schools of both Sunni and Shi'a sects. It's wahaabism that discourages it. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1930
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Khan_Sama wrote: | | Quote: | | To clarify, women aren't viewed as being evil in Islam. There just cannot be a mixing of the sexes. There's a reason why. |
Actually, mixing of the sexes is considered alright by all schools of both Sunni and Shi'a sects. It's wahaabism that discourages it. |
That is because this discussion is about Salafist Saudi. |
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Khan_Sama
Sea Gull
Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Age: 19
Posts: 210
Location: India
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| I understood that, but the general Saudi society does not apply to the international Muslim community, let alone the Arab community. The way you put it...I unfortunately assumed that you view all Muslims in that manner. My mistake, I apologise. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1930
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Khan_Sama wrote: | | I understood that, but the general Saudi society does not apply to the international Muslim community, let alone the Arab community. The way you put it...I unfortunately assumed that you view all Muslims in that manner. My mistake, I apologise. |
Ha, yeah. I just filled it with a bunch of extra information.
The northern Arab countries are pretty much secular. Saudi just takes a big chunk of Arabia--and much of the spotlight.  |
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Silver_Meteor
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 985
Location: North Kingstown, Rhode Island, USA
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:54 am Post subject: |
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For a country like Saudi Arabia this is literally history in the making. This is groundbreaking.
_________________
Not by revolution but through evolution are all things accomplished in permanency.
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Diagnosed with Autism/Childhood Schizophrenia early 60s. Today, I would have Asperger Syndrome |
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Macbeth
Thane of Bar and Cellar
Joined: May 28, 2007
Posts: 1267
Location: UK Doncaster
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| Khan_Sama wrote: | If you don't care about anything to do with us, our faith, our laws, and our lifestyle, why post? We're certainly not sending any missionaries to your doorstep.
Btw, what makes you think that we consider women as "evil"? It certainly shows that you have no knowledge whatsoever about our faith, or any faith on that matter. This reminds me of a particular quote - "A little knowledge can be dangerous. Lack of knowledge can be embarrassing." |
Bit of the old international travel.. narrows the mind wonderfully I feel. Then there was the lengthy conversation/argument/debate with a "Learned Persian", amongst other things. Quite enjoyable it was as well, with a solid friendship formed. Not bad considering I'm embarrassingly unknowledgeable, and not a muslim, so therefore completely incapable of having any knowledge of that religion, or current events on a global scale, and only being aware of what the western media say, buying everything Zion tells me is true, having exactly zero contact with large muslim (and hindu and sikh amongst others) populations in and around my home, whilst also being a raging racist and probably a homophobe as well. ( All angles already well and truly argued in the name of defending Allah and the actions of his people.)
Not sending missionaries? Need I post an endless string of examples of Islamic preachers spreading their "gospel" in my generic "not actually christian but based on about thousand years of christian leadership and values so probably just about considerable as christian if you really push the comparison" nation? Should I link the videos of British citizens telling us how they intend to destroy our nation in the name of Islam because thats what their local Imam told them they should do? Should I post the pictures of london buses bent into unusual shapes because someone decided that suicide and mass-murder is a genuinely clever way to get into heaven?
Perhaps "evil" is too strong a term. Evil is probably too.. emotive. It implies connection on a human level. But I beg indulgence.. what term would you use to describe the sentiment that allows a woman to be stoned to death for defending herself from being raped? (To pick a random example from a random nation?)
And pray excuse my use of the term Islam.. god forbid that I attempt to simplify matters by not referring to the specific subsects and spin-offs and technical terms etc etc in order to save myself a few hours.
_________________
"Mindset of an aristocrat, budget of a tramp" ZGM
"I dont have to know I'm your first if I already know I'm the best" ZGM
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Khan_Sama
Sea Gull
Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Age: 19
Posts: 210
Location: India
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: |
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There are idiots in every community, lol. Why do you consider the actions of a few and label them with the rest?
My city is 55% Muslim. *Looks around for preachers*. I don't see any trying to convert the 40% Hindu and 5% Christian population. Strange. I see the 5% Christian population's missionaries every now and again telling me that Jesus is the only answer.
Are you aware of what an Imam is in Islam? There's no priesthood in Islam, anyone in a group who has the most knowledge on the religion can be the Imam. Other types of knowledge can't apply. There are five mosques within walking distance from my home. All the imams are different. While one Imam might talk about charity, showing kindness, etc, another Imam could be talking about boycotting American products, talking about jihad, etc. I'm sure that applies to priests of every religion as well. However, unlike the other religions, we reserve the right to impeach these Imams if we consider their views as incorrect. Unfortunately, most Muslims blindly listen to what they say.
Btw, suicide + murder are sins in Islam. It's a one way ticket to hell. I will never understand why these lunatics blow themselves up in the name of Allah without realising that what they're doing is completely forbidden and despised by him. Ask any Muslim in your neighbourhood about what they think about suicide, murder, and jihad. Their answer will completely go against your belief that Islam preaches murder and suicide. There are upto 1.4 billion people who call themselves Muslim in this planet. How many exactly are terrorists? I doubt the number exceeds 50,000.
As for the stoning of women, I've already explained it in a thread in the love and dating section. I'll quote my post here.
| Khan_Sama wrote: |
Regarding adultery, stoning to death goes against Islam. It's a western misconception that was created after a Nigerian woman was stoned to death for having an illegitimate child, this was actually an ancient African practice that Muslims in the north of Nigeria adopted. This is the actual punishment for adultery:
| An-Nur 24: 2, The Holy Quran wrote: | | The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment |
Pardon me for defending my faith. |
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