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Harassed by Teacher During Meltdown - READ
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dongiovanni
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Katie's perspective, which may very well be biased, I don't see how Herr Crawford could be construed as the good guy. Could Katie have handled the situation better? Probably. That doesn't change the fact that the man acted in a manner that (to me) seems like he was just trying to be demonstrative of his authority. He insisted on essential man-handling her with the authority instead of taking the two bits of sympathy necessary to help deal with a problem at its source and work constructively. While Katie could have stood down and maybe should have (I don't think so, but...), she did not turn the situation into an antagonistic one; he did. His inaction would have prevented the conflict, whereas it required action by Katie (action that was not morally required) to end the conflict. It seems that from Katie's description that her crying was not a problem until the teacher made it a problem. So for the teacher to put an ultimatum on the situation was certainly uncalled for. Also, for him to completely disregard her AS the way that he did was also morally reprehensible. That would effectively be the ethical equivalent of a physical education teacher shaming a kid with a broken leg for his mile time, saying, "I don't care what shape your leg's in."

Again, why the sectarianism? It saddens me. We're never going to make any progress as a community if we are always (a) giving society the benefit of the doubt and (b) if we adopt the mentality that we have a job to make ourselves compatible with society rather than society accommodating us.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is so true and so typical of what anyone who has a neurological disorder has to deal with. The nature of it being neurological means that we cannot deal with the same situations in the same way as the NTs.
The same sort of things happened to me in school as well. The way you wrote about this is very detailed and insightful. Teachers, in my experience, can be very insensitive.
Good news is, once you get to college, things might go better. Things went better for me in college.
Just keep looking toward your future!
Best wishes.
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history_of_psychiatry
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teoka, Don't take what that dude Crawford or whatever u said his name is seriosly. He's just a highschool teacher. Anyone can go through some college and become a minimum wage earning "babysitter". Teachers only know what they teach out of their textbooks. Many of their students have much more intelligence than they do. Your teacher was probably just mad that everyone's parents make more money than he does and he took the anger out on you. You should really feal sorry for him.
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anbuend
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

velodog wrote:
No strawman here, you brought workers rights into the discussion. I simply responded by telling you how my Union handles those who deliberately disrupt jobsites.


I didn't see anything in the original post about deliberately disrupting anything.

Quote:
If you believe that being an Aspie (or not an Aspie) gives you the right to refuse to take tests or otherwise meet academic standards to graduate then go for it.


I didn't see anything about refusal to take a test, either.

Quote:
After you successfully finish High School with that formula, then you can mentally prepare yourself by laying your head on the desk and refusing to take tests while in College.


Have you ever actually experienced shutdown?

The extreme kind? Where an ability simply isn't there when you need it to be?

It's actually recommended by experts on the topic, to do something along the lines of reduce activity, sensory stimulation, and outside pressure, while you wait for the abilities to come back.

i.e., lying your head on your desk is among the most adaptive things to do if you're genuinely experiencing a severe enough shutdown. (well, it's also pretty adaptive for less severe versions, but less severe versions can also sometimes be pushed through)

There are also steps a person can take to prevent it, but a totally unexpected change in routine can throw a lot of autistic people into total non-functionality. Making it to class at all under those circumstances shows someone is probably not lacking in the willpower department.

What I find interesting is how many people have used the words and concepts the teacher used, in responding to the original poster.

The original poster did not say she was sleeping, but the teacher did.

The original poster did not say she was deliberately disrupting the class, but the teacher did.

The original poster did not say she was deliberately refusing to take a test, but the teacher did.

As far as college is concerned, I went to a community college that did allow students to take more time to take tests, including if they were autistic. They even allowed test-taking in a separate room if it was necessary. And there are many totally cheap or free ways that a workplace can be modified to allow an autistic person to be productive there and give them time to recover from changes in routine. I know this because I know a number of autistic people who are in the workforce, some of them making quite good money, and do have these modifications as part of their job.

But, as far as the original post is concerned, what it looked like, when the teacher started getting nasty and snarky, was the person was being totally non-disruptive, and doing all the right things to help overcome shutdown as rapidly as possible.

Sometimes I think elements of the autistic community are terrified to admit that there are autistic people who genuinely need adaptations (like a big of extra time to deal with shutdown) in order to function. It's like, that would mean admitting that the "just put us in the work force and expect us to function like everyone else" model doesn't work for the majority of us, and it'd also mean admitting that not everyone fits the public super-autie image that some autistic people are trying to cultivate of themselves.

Note that my perspective doesn't say that autistic people shouldn't work to the best of our ability to avoid doing things that cause problems for us or other people. Learning to deal with overload, shutdown, and meltdowns is an art form that many of us take years or decades to progress in.

This person is still in high school by the sound of it, and has learned to control herself to a greater degree than I could even approach until my mid-twenties. Starting at the age of just-barely-almost-fifteen I was almost entirely in segregated schooling environments (when in any schools at all) until I was eighteen.

One thing I always find interesting about special school is this: All the people who are supposedly disruptive or unable to learn in "normal" classes get sent there. So... okay, we're supposedly too disruptive to learn around, and more easily distracted than normal, and yet we're supposed to be able to learn around each other? Well... when anything was taught, we actually did learn around each other. We learned around people having screaming tantrums just outside the classroom window, and we learned around people standing on top of the school building peeing off the roof. We, who supposedly had far less ability to take that kind of distraction.

This convinces me that the reason many of these things are considered horrible distractions in regular classes, is because non-disabled people are not expected as a matter of course to put up with each other. They feel that they are entitled not to have us around the moment we become inconvenient, and much of current practice backs them up. Disabled people are not given any such weird sense of entitlement, and are expected to put up with each other as a matter of course, and, surprise, we do learn that.

That's a bit of a digression, but I wanted to mention it, given that I think if disabled kids could learn while heavily drugged and with screaming and peeing and the like going on around us, then non-disabled kids could learn to do so as well. Not that screaming and peeing off buildings and things are great things to be doing if you can do anything about it, but good grief I think if we could put up with that then non-disabled kids can deal with someone putting their head on their desk or softly crying. (Heck, even public-school kids can disrupt class more than that without being asked to leave. I can remember in regular school crying in class after a teacher yelled at me, and he certainly got disgusted with me but he never asked me to leave.)

To get back on the topic of shutdown though:

Basically, I'm at the stage where even communication requires taking enough breaks, to be able to do it at least somewhat consistently. I was just at an autism conference where those breaks were not always possible, and very soon I became unable to speak or respond to people. Very fortunately, nobody came out of the woodwork to yell at me and make snarky comments about "sleeping". Because people were willing to take the extra few minutes to leave me alone, I usually recovered my ability to type within a relatively short period of time. Had someone come at me in an aggressive manner it would have only shut me down further.

I'm not making these situations up, either. There's a website dedicated to this topic called Shutdowns and Stress in Autism, where they talk about a kid really falling asleep in response to increased pressure to do a difficult task. (That kid's pattern of shutdown is only one among many, but they're all variations on similar things.)

And the proper responses to a shutdown are:

1. Try to avoid situations that cause it in the first place, where possible.

2. Learn various internal ways of regulating the kind of stress that can lead to shutdown, again where possible.

3. (Where possible) try to avoid extra stimulation, stress, pressure, and thought.

4. Make controlling behavior that is directly destructive (physically injuring someone, for instance) the highest priority, all other things (including avoiding crying) will be lower priorities than that one, but possibly higher priorities than other things.

5. If you have to do something difficult, attempt to wait until your brain is settled and collected to do it, otherwise doing so will quite possibly just escalate the shutdown.

6. (for people around the person) don't add extra stress, pressure, or stimulation to the person unless absolutely necessary, and be prepared for just about any response if you do. Certainly don't be mean to the person.

So, yes, there's a place for controlling yourself and the situation, but once a person is shutting down it is disingenuous to act as if shutdown is a voluntary act and a person is simply "task-avoidant" or whatever the current trendy term was. That is a really good way to make the situation in general worse, and it's never appropriate with any student anyway.

I'm kind of baffled by the idea that because it's impossible to control someone else's actions, then it's also wrong to have them held accountable for their actions. The student did not make a choice to shut down in class, but did seem to make a choice to handle it in what's among the most efficient ways possible in a classroom (or, if it was not a choice, her body made the choice for her -- happens to me sometimes if I don't choose to do the right thing, and is always far worse to have it forced than to just do it). The teacher on the other hand chose to belittle and ridicule the student in an aggressive manner. While the original thing about trying to ruin his career was probably an overreaction, I saw nothing in the student's conduct as described in the classroom that was all that bad at all, and I saw a lot in the teacher's behavior that was extremely wrong (and not acting for the good of the class either).

And what seems to really be happening in this thread, is that what actually happened to the student is getting lost in favor of some people's ideologies that tell them that situations like this are always the student's problem period, because otherwise various other parts of their ideologies about the workplace and whatnot would topple over and fall apart. People seem afraid of any bad portrayal of autistic people, and thus seem afraid to admit that a lot of these situations are not under the full control of the autistic person in question. Some of the comparisons -- such as the idea that driving recklessly or otherwise truly endangering people is in any way comparable to laying your head on your desk in class or even crying in class -- strain credibility so much that it seems like some people are really reaching to make this into a story of an "autistic person using it as an excuse and avoiding taking responsibility" and not to notice or do anything about the actual injustice (or actual need to take responsibility) in the situation.

From the original poster's post, it seems like she's totally fine about taking responsibility, and trying to do better (although if she could never do better than that it would be no reason to throw her out of class or call security). It also seems as if the teacher is being irresponsible and not being held accountable. Therefore, it seems really obvious which one the problem currently lies with.

It's also just ... odd ... to see how other people's experiences play out in this one. Not all autistic people are capable of the same things in the same areas. And while I'm seeing a lot of people totally willing to, based on their own experiences, judge someone for not doing as well as they would in a particular situation, based on my experiences it's very hard to judge her because I probably still don't have her degree of self-control. (Maybe more so in emotional matters, but shutdown hits me and I can do very little about it other than the bare minimum necessary to avoid doing anything dangerous, and that bare minimum has only been consistently met recently.) And this is with my having dedicated my entire adult life to learning better methods of self-control, and succeeding a good deal.

So... yeah. I'm just not seeing the "let's all claim the autistic person is deliberately doing all these things and not taking responsibility" picture that other people claim to be seeing.
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dongiovanni
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I pretty much second everything that Amanda said. I just didn't want to make her into the thread-killer, so I decided to voice my support.
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velodog
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anbuend, here is what the OP has reported herself as the result of the incident. Apparently she feels like a large portion of the student body considers her to be using her AS as an excuse to BS people. All because her lunch routine was changed. If this had been put in The Haven then I would not have responded the way I did, but it was posted here as a political issue, a fight to be won. Can you show me anything positive or even remotely resembling a victory that has happened to the OP as a result of this whole mess?
I work, in the workforce, with NT's, on a daily basis and I know what will and won't be tolerated by people running job sites that I work at. Some work places may choose to make allowances for meltdowns, I have not been to one that does.

Seriously anbuend if this situation looks to you like a winnable battle then I would like to know how. I have no influence over the people that Teoka references in the quote below. They made up their own minds about her sincerity, and while you may ( or may not ) be shocked that they came to the conclusions that they did, I am not.


Teoka wrote:
You all can stop assuming things about what my motivations were right NOW.

I was NOT trying to disrupt the class on purpose. I already feel like everyone thinks I'm psychotic now; do you have any idea how hard it is to go to school now?! It turns out that more people who I thought were my friends think that I'm using my AS as an excuse to BS people. I figure that in time they'll learn, but as it is now, it's more painful than anything I've ever dealt with before. I'd like to note that those closest to me do not make those assumptions. My family, boyfriend, and close friends know how I'm different.

I was upset because my lunch routine had been changed and I felt excluded! I'm sure at least some of you can relate to that! I was originally going to be fine and calm down on my own, which I have only in the past few years been able to do on my own, but the teacher's sarcastic comment was the straw that broke the camel's back.

I wasn't trying to show aspies in a negative or positive light. I was just going about my day which was going horribly wrong. And as much as we all try, we can't hide the negative aspects about AS. We can try our best to show that we're not all bad, but no one is all good..
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anbuend
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trust me I'm not big on emotional "support" threads and that's not why I'm writing what I'm writing.

But most of the things people have come up with out of this have been tangents, or have been things to the effect of "This makes us look bad, so we should just berate the person for having fewer skills than we do in some areas."

When a teacher is able to be nasty to a person for "sleeping" when they are just shutting down and doing so in one of the most responsible and productive ways possible, that's discrimination. It doesn't matter whether a "victory" in this area is easy, it is not okay to turn around and try to bother the OP for not being in an easy situation.

As far as political issues go, I think the way some autistic people treat autistic people with fewer skills in certain areas is a major political issue within the autistic community. Especially when this person was not screaming, she was not throwing things, she was not hitting people, she was putting her head on her desk.

What the teacher did is akin to non-disabled people trying to throw people with severe cerebral palsy out of restaurants because their eating style disgusts other people. What many people on this thread are doing, is like when people justify throwing people out by saying "Well it is disgusting, how selfish to want to eat in a restaurant with everyone else when you can't chew quietly and you sometimes involuntarily choke, you have to think of everyone else here."

The fact that the teacher thinks everyone in the class is entitled to have a class without people shutting down in it is the problem, just like people who think they have some kind of right to eat in public without people with disabilities around is the problem in the restaurant situation I described.

Oh, and I should mention -- when I was 16 years old, I was in a small classroom in a barn. Four students including me. I was drugged to the gills and often nearly passed out in class and drooled all over. This was seen as harming the other students in some way, so instead of making the situation so that I wouldn't need to do that, they put me in a big chair facing away from everyone and blared audio books into my ears on a Walkman to keep me awake. I don't think that was the right thing to do in that situation, nor do I think that treating her like she's the problem is the right thing to do.

And that's the political issue. That's where the problem is. You know, autism politics isn't just about "easy" situations where it's really really simple to get a "victory", and it isn't just for autistic people who "look nice" or have no real problems adapting to the world as it is. In fact, given that the point of autism politics is usually to change the world to make it more adapted to us (as in disability politics in general), I'd think it's more and more relevant the less and less an environment is adapted to a particular person.

And way relevant is that some autistic people think it's okay to draw a line between what they consider good auties and bad auties, and only fight for the people with the right set of skills, the right attitude, the easiest situations to figure out, etc.

So yes, it's highly relevant as a part of a political situation, and many of the posts here are good examples of a huge part of the problem. Personally I think that if the autistic community only fights for people it finds "pretty" (not the word I'm after, but something like that), then it's being more lazy than it is political. Most political situations when it comes to disability are not neat and tidy, and they require actual work, actual stepping out of your comfort zone, all those kind of things that aren't fixed with a by-your-own-bootstraps kind of attitude. (Which is the least political attitude in this thread, really, since it just focuses on the person being discriminated against being the problem.)
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velodog
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anbuend wrote:
1)Trust me I'm not big on emotional "support" threads and that's not why I'm writing what I'm writing.

2)But most of the things people have come up with out of this have been tangents, or have been things to the effect of "This makes us look bad, so we should just berate the person for having fewer skills than we do in some areas."

3)When a teacher is able to be nasty to a person for "sleeping" when they are just shutting down and doing so in one of the most responsible and productive ways possible, that's discrimination. It doesn't matter whether a "victory" in this area is easy, it is not okay to turn around and try to bother the OP for not being in an easy situation.

4)The fact that the teacher thinks everyone in the class is entitled to have a class without people shutting down in it

5) You know, autism politics isn't just about "easy" situations where it's really really simple to get a "victory", and it isn't just for autistic people who "look nice" or have no real problems adapting to the world as it is. In fact, given that the point of autism politics is usually to change the world to make it more adapted to us (as in disability politics in general), I'd think it's more and more relevant the less and less an environment is adapted to a particular person.

6)And way relevant is that some autistic people think it's okay to draw a line between what they consider good auties and bad auties, and only fight for the people with the right set of skills, the right attitude, the easiest situations to figure out, etc.

7)Most political situations when it comes to disability are not neat and tidy, and they require actual work, actual stepping out of your comfort zone, all those kind of things that aren't fixed with a by-your-own-bootstraps kind of attitude. (Which is the least political attitude in this thread, really, since it just focuses on the person being discriminated against being the problem.)

1) Emotional support threads. I was not being sarcastic when I said I would have responded different in the Haven.
2)We should care how we present ourselves when we publicly proclaim ourselves as autistic. If we expect NT's (not my term) to understand us than perhaps we should reciprocate and try to understand their possible perspective as well. Or is it a one way street?
3)Is it even possible that the teacher may have thought she was sleeping? And I still believe that every possible battle is not necessarily one that it is wise to fight. Getting your ass kicked on a regular basis because you let the opposition pick the venue and circumstances will not give your side credibility for future engagements.
4)Try to sell that to the School Board and PTA.
5)Changing the worldview of the entire world sounds awfully akin to tilting at windmills to me.
6)I have never stated an intent or desire to separate AS/HFA people from LFA Auties.
7) This is a good deal of the differences between us, because I have not even known what AS is, much less Kanners Autism except for the last not quite 3 years. And I have not even suspected that I am on the spectrum until Feb. of 2007. It was not confirmed until 4/9/08, so I have had to learn job skills and kick bullies asses myself. And I do tend to take a pragmatic view of the world rather than an idealistic one. Contrary to what some respondents to this thread may think, I do not have any ill will or dislike of Teoka or other people who may have a different function level than myself.

After this post I'll just leave this sh** alone. Obviously I'm just getting in the way of progress for Autistic Rights, have a good life.
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Teoka
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Velodog, I'm glad you're not posting here anymore. Because, frankly, you are WRONG. There's no gray area, what my teacher did was WRONG. I don't see how yelling at a crying student can be justified. If you can, I'd rethink my moral code. Tough love doesn't work here.

If anyone thinks that I tried to use my AS as an excuse, you obviously don't know me at all. So listen up. Do you REALLY think I thought "I'm [tired, lazy, etc.], so I'm going to use my AS as an excuse to get away with [such and such]"? There's a fine line between explaining how something affected something else, and making up a BS excuse.

Excuse my German, but alle Leute, die denken, dass ich falsch bin, können mein Teil saugen.


Anyway, I would like to thank those of you who have been supportive and have defended me. <333 I couldn't hope for more from you guys!
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Bunni
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This could have been handled in so many different ways.

I understand both sides quite well, but what didn't happen was validation and effective communication.

The teacher could have minimized the situation by coming over and quietly speaking his request, and explaining that it was he who was being disrupted from teaching the class. this might have been more easily understood, and made sence, giving you the more reasonable option of making a decision.

My daughter also hates to bring attention to herself so i understand quite well how the escalation of this only made matters worse.

The training alot of teachers seem to get is focused on controlling behaviors rather than understanding the differences. What controlling does is exacerbate behaviors. What effective communication does is validate the student while communicating the needs of all involved. Understanding is what needs to be taught.

Since the statistics now show 1 in 150 kids has autism, and clinicians feel it is under diagnosed, then something is going to have to be done in the way of a societal tilt. We don't expect blind people to see becasue it's inconvenient for the world that they don't. There is that understanding of what blind means. There will need to be such an understanding of Autism as well.
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Argon
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teachers have a hard job, if she was quite capable of saying 'I'm having a meltdown', then it wasn't much of a meltdown was it. I have freaked out, but I have left the room. It is not fair that 30 or maybe 40 other children have to take a test whilst one child sits wailing.

The needs of many etc, will always outweigh the needs of the one. That is a fact of life. If she wants to be accepted in mainstream schools then a modicum of effort is required on her behalf too....e.g. crap I can't stop this feeling happening, so I best remove myself.

My son can be problematic at school, he was given a pass so that when he is getting upset he can just walk to the desk show the teacher the pass and leave the room, no fuss no questions asked and no scene. That way as far as the rest of the class is concerned it may be a dental appointment.

At the end of the day teachers have their qualifications and you don't, so it's only you who will end up hurting, and if you want to be in mainstream schooling rather than special needs you must make at least some effort to fit in.

By shouting I have AS therefore, you need to accept me and my actions regardless of how disruptive they are. You are infact adding to the countless NT's feelings of ...'spoilt brat syndrome'. We only have your side that you were not disrupting the rest of the class.

If I had to take a test in a room with someone crying non stop. I'd freakout quite possibly and chuck them out myself.

*Edit*

Your actions may also cause resentment from your peers too, as in..."Oh god we don't have to put up with this crap all the time do we?, because no one is allowed to tell the AS girl she's pissing us off".

Acceptance is a two way street, and as your in the minority you will have to work harder than the majority, fact of life.


Last edited by Argon on Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jellybean
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading this was like reading my entire last three years of school. In my school for a total of one year, i was given a small red card which had 'this student requires time out' written on it. All I had to do was get the teacher's attention, show it them and leave the room, no questions asked, no laughter or unneccessary attention. I suggest you or your parents campaign for something similar.
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Argon
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jellybean wrote:
Reading this was like reading my entire last three years of school. In my school for a total of one year, i was given a small red card which had 'this student requires time out' written on it. All I had to do was get the teacher's attention, show it them and leave the room, no questions asked, no laughter or unneccessary attention. I suggest you or your parents campaign for something similar.


Similar to the card my son was given, terrific idea.
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Cori
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is outrageous! It's not called disability harassment, it's called discrimination and he needs to be punished for it! I would file a discriminatory complaint with OCR (Office of Civil Rights) naming the teacher and the school. He obviously needs some major training that the school needs to provide him with! Don't let him get away with what he did. He needs to be taken down a notch and if OCR contacts the school, he will be.
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Argon
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cori wrote:
This is outrageous! It's not called disability harassment, it's called discrimination and he needs to be punished for it! I would file a discriminatory complaint with OCR (Office of Civil Rights) naming the teacher and the school. He obviously needs some major training that the school needs to provide him with! Don't let him get away with what he did. He needs to be taken down a notch and if OCR contacts the school, he will be.

Ok all I can say to that is LOL!!!.

*edit*
I did write 'grow up', but I have no doubt you are not an adult yet, to have written this. Most children dislike teachers. Teachers have a tough job and having to tread on eggshells with every student would make life almost impossible for them.

The class cannot revolve around one childs tantrums. I am thinking not to post here or come to this site again because it seems being aspie = being up ur own ass. The entire site is full of....oooo I'm so hard done by, evil NT's and we are so superior because we are aspie/autie. I think I'll keep any hint of asperger's to myself now, because I don't want people to be scared to say boo to me incase I start a law suit against them for discrimination.
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