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| If you believe in God, why? |
| Irriducible complexity found in nature. |
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| Historicity of the Bible. |
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15% |
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| Conservation of mass/energy. |
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15% |
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| How fiercely God is opposed everywhere. |
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| Because macroevolution and abiogenesis are bull. |
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7% |
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| Other (reason for believing in God) |
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30% |
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| Other (you just want to bother people who believe, to which I say, "get lost after you vote".) |
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| Total Votes : 13 |
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Orwell
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 Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:09 am Post subject: |
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I don't know if I have ever seen a thread so thoroughly derailed in such a short time. Parakeet-man, sorry for the collective hijacking of your thread, but the topic left out too many possibilities anyways, as well as being too slanted to your own brand of fundamentalism.
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Kalister1
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:11 am Post subject: |
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That still does not mean there is a God. Using the commonly held tool of scientists, the scientific method, as a basis for "If we really know or not" is the standard that I put forth to draw the dichotomy between knowledge and belief. You're right, maybe I shouldn't put a should there, as who is to say what we should or should not do. However, simply putting God as an explanation is ludicrous. Mankind has to put forth standards to really "know", as the opposite would be an invitation to madness. According to the standard held by scientists, he does not know there is a god. You can call it arbitrary, and I would say its the best tool we have, as its arbitrary to even believe you are typing this on your keyboard right now. Empiricism tries to probe reality, while post modernism simply gazes at the floor saying "I'm not sure, but you're not sure either!" . There is a level of "belief" that transcends belief into the realm of "knowing".
His god hypothesis does not have any evidence to back it up, while the nature of reality does. As arbitrary as it might be, your social construct gives you computers, television, radio, and a host of other technological advances. Your denial of these gives you... the dark ages.
I believe you are pulling your arguments from Being and Nothingness, "identity".
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Last edited by Kalister1 on Fri May 09, 2008 3:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Orwell
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| Kalister1 wrote: | That still does not mean there is a God. Using the commonly held belief of scientists, the scientific method, as a basis for "If we really know or not" is the standard that I put forth to draw the dichotomy between knowledge and belief. You're right, maybe I shouldn't put a should there, as who is to say what we should or should not do. However, simply putting God as an explanation is ludicrous. Mankind has to put forth standards to really "know", as the opposite would be an invitation to madness. According to the standard held by scientists, he does not know there is a god. You can call it arbitrary, and I would say its the best tool we have, as its arbitrary to even believe you are typing this on your keyboard right now.
I believe you are pulling your arguments from Being and Nothingness, "identity". |
Science is a useful tool for making sense of the world around us. However, it is not the be-all-end-all of human knowledge. People have attempted to use the "scientific method" to produce poetry and novels. Oddly enough, none of those people are acclaimed writers. Science has its uses, but to confine yourself strictly to one specific worldview limits what you are able to explain in a satisfactory manner. Eclecticism works better, if you only hold to one view you will run up against something that doesn't make sense in the context of your philosophy- if there was one unified approach to knowledge that adequately explained everything, it would be the only one still taken seriously.
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Kalister1
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | Kalister1 wrote: | That still does not mean there is a God. Using the commonly held belief of scientists, the scientific method, as a basis for "If we really know or not" is the standard that I put forth to draw the dichotomy between knowledge and belief. You're right, maybe I shouldn't put a should there, as who is to say what we should or should not do. However, simply putting God as an explanation is ludicrous. Mankind has to put forth standards to really "know", as the opposite would be an invitation to madness. According to the standard held by scientists, he does not know there is a god. You can call it arbitrary, and I would say its the best tool we have, as its arbitrary to even believe you are typing this on your keyboard right now.
I believe you are pulling your arguments from Being and Nothingness, "identity". |
Science is a useful tool for making sense of the world around us. However, it is not the be-all-end-all of human knowledge. People have attempted to use the "scientific method" to produce poetry and novels. Oddly enough, none of those people are acclaimed writers. Science has its uses, but to confine yourself strictly to one specific worldview limits what you are able to explain in a satisfactory manner. Eclecticism works better, if you only hold to one view you will run up against something that doesn't make sense in the context of your philosophy- if there was one unified approach to knowledge that adequately explained everything, it would be the only one still taken seriously. |
One day, science may be able to explain everything. There is a belief. The belief that it one day can not, is also a belief. Who is to say one day science can not do those things? A computer, sensing patterns in the way novels are written, begins writing outstanding stories. I believe scientific rigor is one of the few modes of knowledge still taken seriously.
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Orwell
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| Kalister1 wrote: |
One day, science may be able to explain everything. There is a belief. The belief that it one day can not, is also a belief. Who is to say one day science can not do those things? A computer, sensing patterns in the way novels are written, begins writing outstanding stories. I believe scientific rigor is one of the few modes of knowledge still taken seriously. |
Science is taken more seriously because it is easier to be objective in science- there's no way to be objective in literature, art, theology, or even politics. I doubt we'll see much in the way of good computer-generated art, personally. Science is good (heck, it's what I intend to make a career of) but there are other approaches to knowledge as well.
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Kalister1
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | Kalister1 wrote: |
One day, science may be able to explain everything. There is a belief. The belief that it one day can not, is also a belief. Who is to say one day science can not do those things? A computer, sensing patterns in the way novels are written, begins writing outstanding stories. I believe scientific rigor is one of the few modes of knowledge still taken seriously. |
Science is taken more seriously because it is easier to be objective in science- there's no way to be objective in literature, art, theology, or even politics. I doubt we'll see much in the way of good computer-generated art, personally. Science is good (heck, it's what I intend to make a career of) but there are other approaches to knowledge as well. |
Hmm..
I don't know where to go on this issue. I hope so. That would be very..odd. Maybe even.. scary. Many of us would be out of a job if the computer could make better art than humans. So maybe I don't? Science goes on blindly.
Edit: Also, best thread derailment ever. It went from crap to A++ Definitely going to re-read Sartre.
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Orwell
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| Kalister1 wrote: |
Hmm..
I don't know where to go on this issue. I hope so. That would be very..odd. Maybe even.. scary. Many of us would be out of a job if the computer could make better art than humans. So maybe I don't? Science goes on blindly.
Edit: Also, best thread derailment ever. It went from crap to A++ Definitely going to re-read Sartre. |
Well, now we're into the problem of AI and synthetic sentience. Always an interesting topic. Really, I have little to no appreciation for most human-generated art, so I wouldn't be inclined to judge it against computer art. Music would be interesting if computers learned how to compose. However, there is still the question of creativity and how that could ever be produced in a machine; after all, computers run on algorithms. Can an algorithm ever lead to something entirely new? And then, since the capacity for original thought in machines would have been established, they could take over all fields of human study, all scientist would be out of a job.
And yes, this thread derailment was quite epic.
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Kalister1
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | Kalister1 wrote: |
Hmm..
I don't know where to go on this issue. I hope so. That would be very..odd. Maybe even.. scary. Many of us would be out of a job if the computer could make better art than humans. So maybe I don't? Science goes on blindly.
Edit: Also, best thread derailment ever. It went from crap to A++ Definitely going to re-read Sartre. |
Well, now we're into the problem of AI and synthetic sentience. Always an interesting topic. Really, I have little to no appreciation for most human-generated art, so I wouldn't be inclined to judge it against computer art. Music would be interesting if computers learned how to compose. However, there is still the question of creativity and how that could ever be produced in a machine; after all, computers run on algorithms. Can an algorithm ever lead to something entirely new? And then, since the capacity for original thought in machines would have been established, they could take over all fields of human study, all scientist would be out of a job.
And yes, this thread derailment was quite epic. |
Well, my major is heavily involved in computers, so my "informed" answer is -
No idea.
I have a giant bible on A.I. that I found in a thrift store (SCORE!), and I have yet to read it. I think it all hinges on our ability to understand the human mind, and how to translate that into 0's and 1's.
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Orwell
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| Kalister1 wrote: | Well, my major is heavily involved in computers, so my "informed" answer is -
No idea.
I have a giant bible on A.I. that I found in a thrift store (SCORE!), and I have yet to read it. I think it all hinges on our ability to understand the human mind, and how to translate that into 0's and 1's. |
Ha. If we need to understand the human mind before we have AI, it'll be a rather long wait. We probably would NEED some type of super-AI to be able to understand the mind.
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Kalister1
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | Kalister1 wrote: | Well, my major is heavily involved in computers, so my "informed" answer is -
No idea.
I have a giant bible on A.I. that I found in a thrift store (SCORE!), and I have yet to read it. I think it all hinges on our ability to understand the human mind, and how to translate that into 0's and 1's. |
Ha. If we need to understand the human mind before we have AI, it'll be a rather long wait. We probably would NEED some type of super-AI to be able to understand the mind. |
I'm not sure, A.I. isn't something I study very much. There are many articles on it, but for the most part they can be quite esoteric. As you can see on just the wikipedia article, many people are just trying to simulate the human mind. Very difficult.
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D1nk0
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 12, 2007
Age: 29
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:48 am Post subject: |
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| Kalister1 wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | Kalister1 wrote: | Well, my major is heavily involved in computers, so my "informed" answer is -
No idea.
I have a giant bible on A.I. that I found in a thrift store (SCORE!), and I have yet to read it. I think it all hinges on our ability to understand the human mind, and how to translate that into 0's and 1's. |
Ha. If we need to understand the human mind before we have AI, it'll be a rather long wait. We probably would NEED some type of super-AI to be able to understand the mind. |
I'm not sure, A.I. isn't something I study very much. There are many articles on it, but for the most part they can be quite esoteric. As you can see on just the wikipedia article, many people are just trying to simulate the human mind. Very difficult. |
A place to start is with recursion. The conscious mind is the result of (continuous)Transfinite Recursion.......................... |
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iamnotaparakeet
Centurio Caesareae
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Age: 22
Posts: 11615
Location: Domus Psittacorum
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | OrderAndChaos30 wrote: | | Aren't options 1 and 5 redundant? The unreducible complexity of nature is the basic reason macro-evolution and abiogenisis can be refuted as logically implausible. I expect plenty of flames from the devout Atheists for insulting their un-god with reason. |
They're not invited. Irreducible complexity is just one aspect of why evolution is bull, but there are many more, hence a separate option for generality. |
Ah, I do love the arrogance of assuming that all non-fundies are raving atheists. Serious study of evolutionary biology doesn't really leave you with much that you can call "irreducible complexity." Evolutionary researchers have provided explanations for the development of the eye, the wing, and even the move from unicellular to multicellular as well as the development of eukaryotes.
Parakeet, have you ever studied botany? If you truly believe that plants in their present form were specifically created in their exact present form, you believe in a much weaker God than I do. The several flaws in plant anatomy convince me that they are the result of a historical process, which does not create perfect organisms to perfectly fit their environment, but rather improvises and co-opts existing structures as well as possible to meet new needs. The same can be said of much of human anatomy- why do we have an appendix? Why does our mesentery attach at the spine rather than to the rib cage? Evolutionists can answer these questions- you can not unless you admit either fallibility or malice on the part of God, which neither of us would accept. |
Enough strawmen! I accept evolution, can you comprehend that?!
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iamnotaparakeet
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:03 am Post subject: |
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Everyone who is here to cause trouble isn't welcome; they may be ignored.
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Ego non sum parvus psittacus!
Es neesmu mazs papagailis!
Yo no soy un periquito! |
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iamnotaparakeet
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Age: 22
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Romans and Jews |
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| D1nk0 wrote: | | You see to really love the Romans, even more so than the Ehudim. Any particular reason? |
Studying Latin right now, thus I have an interest in the people who used to speak it.
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iamnotaparakeet
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | Everyone who is here to cause trouble isn't welcome; they may be ignored. |
That means Kalister1 in particular.
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