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DW_a_mom
Velociraptor
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Posts: 496
Location: Northern California
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 Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | LeKiwi wrote: | | people survived for millennia without drugs and pills and vaccines, what makes you think you have to rely on them to survive? Especially now, when disease plagues us moer than at any other time in history? |
1. Disease plagues us a lot less now than at any other time in history, largely de to modern medicine. You are an idiot if you think there is more disease now than there was in the Middle Ages.
2. People survived for millennia without drugs and pills and vaccines... but not all people. Plenty of people died of various diseases, all the time. The fact that humanity was not driven to extinction does not mean it is impossible for us to be healthier. I personally would most likely be dead several times over without modern medicine. |
3. Do any of us really want to go back to the days when you had to give birth to a dozen or so children in the hope that "enough" would make it to adulthood?
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LeKiwi
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 1956
Location: The murky waters of my mind...
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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What kind of an adulthood is it though, when diabetes, cancer, HIV, obesity, and mental illness are par for course for more or less everyone alive?
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LeKiwi
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 1956
Location: The murky waters of my mind...
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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Just to be clear, I'm not disparaging all modern medicine. Trauma care is absolutely brilliant, of course. Neonatal care is the same, triage and A&E emergency units are wonderful. There's a lot to be said for modern healthcare.
Unfortunately, 99% of all modern drugs aren't one of those things.
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 2582
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| LeKiwi wrote: | If I were to post deaths and/or life-long afflictions linked to the measles vaccine you'd reject them as incidental or 'unrelated' (ok, perhaps you personally wouldn't, but that tends to be the reaction of most vaccine advocates in my experience).
I'm not paranoid, I'm just astounded at how few people seem to examine the facts or care about what we're being pumped with. In between the toxins that pollute the air we breathe, the water we drink, the clothes we wear, the materials we build our homes with, and 95% of the food we eat, I'm kinda keen to be cutting back on as much exposure as I possibly can. Cancer is now likely to affect a third of the population at some point or other - does that not terrify you? Auto-immune diseases are growing so fast it's untrue - again, does that not tell you something's very, very wrong? And what is it that affects our immune systems most directly from the beginning of our lives, pumping them with all manner of toxins when they're not yet developed? 30 years ago it was around 5-7, depending on where you lived - now it's around 35!
I can't believe how blasé people on this site are, and again, that's not even bringing autism into it... |
So you're not going to bother refuting specific points I made. Yes, you are paranoid in rejecting all medical authorities. Yes, that web site you gave me is a bunch of conspiracy nuts. No, your attempts at scare-mongering and innuendo are not convincing.
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 2582
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| LeKiwi wrote: | | What kind of an adulthood is it though, when diabetes, cancer, HIV, obesity, and mental illness are par for course for more or less everyone alive? |
Because everyone has HIV? Not really. Obesity is a social issue, people should take care of themselves. Penicillin doesn't make you fat, neither does the MMR shot. Diabetes is partly genetic, partly due to people not taking care of themselves as well as they should. We're living long enough now that cancer actually has time to develop. Before, you would die of something else before cancer got to you. And cancer deaths in the US are on the decline, moron. What mental illnesses do you refer to, and what evidence that they have increased in frequency not due to changes in diagnosis and awareness?
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Orwell
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Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
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Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| LeKiwi wrote: | | If I were to post deaths and/or life-long afflictions linked to the measles vaccine you'd reject them as incidental or 'unrelated' (ok, perhaps you personally wouldn't, but that tends to be the reaction of most vaccine advocates in my experience). |
If you post something that is blatantly crap science (and by this I mean improperly conducted studies (anything by Wakefield falls under this), not from a peer-reviewed source, purely anecdotal claims, etc) then yes, I will reject it. If you post something from a credible source that casts doubt on the safety of vaccines, I'll take a look at it.
I'm waiting.
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1878
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| LeKiwi wrote: | | I'm not paranoid |
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. Paranoid people by definition will think they aren't paranoid, because they think their paranoid thinking is true.
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iamnotaparakeet
Enemy of Wal-Mart!!!
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Age: 22
Posts: 9100
Location: 44.7N 93.6W
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | LeKiwi wrote: | | What about the suffering and deaths of people - autistic or not - that results from vaccines? And no, I'm not making any reference to them causing or not causing autism, or to mercury on its own. |
Feel free to give numbers for this, and compare to the alternative of leaving the population susceptible to easily preventible diseases. |
The disease tetanus bacillus would be a nasty one to get. I felt queasy after injection and my arm hurt from the shot, but I would rather have that than:
| Quote: | | an infectious, often fatal disease caused by a specific bacterium that enters the body through wounds and characterized by respiratory paralysis and tonic spasms and rigidity of the voluntary muscles, esp. those of the neck and lower jaw. |
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Orwell
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Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
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Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | LeKiwi wrote: | | What about the suffering and deaths of people - autistic or not - that results from vaccines? And no, I'm not making any reference to them causing or not causing autism, or to mercury on its own. |
Feel free to give numbers for this, and compare to the alternative of leaving the population susceptible to easily preventible diseases. |
The disease tetanus bacillus would be a nasty one to get. I felt queasy after injection and my arm hurt from the shot, but I would rather have that than:
| Quote: | | an infectious, often fatal disease caused by a specific bacterium that enters the body through wounds and characterized by respiratory paralysis and tonic spasms and rigidity of the voluntary muscles, esp. those of the neck and lower jaw. |
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Heck, most college students (myself included) are vaccinated against meningococcal meningitis. That one's not too pleasant either.
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iamnotaparakeet
Enemy of Wal-Mart!!!
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Age: 22
Posts: 9100
Location: 44.7N 93.6W
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Odin wrote: | | LeKiwi wrote: | | I'm not paranoid |
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. Paranoid people by definition will think they aren't paranoid, because they think their paranoid thinking is true. |
Ad hominem. For the validity of your case does not rest with your ability to ridicule, you may hence keep to facts instead of insults.
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Deum meum culpabant ob toto malo, sed Deum meum laudabo ob toto bono. |
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iamnotaparakeet
Enemy of Wal-Mart!!!
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Age: 22
Posts: 9100
Location: 44.7N 93.6W
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | LeKiwi wrote: | | What about the suffering and deaths of people - autistic or not - that results from vaccines? And no, I'm not making any reference to them causing or not causing autism, or to mercury on its own. |
Feel free to give numbers for this, and compare to the alternative of leaving the population susceptible to easily preventible diseases. |
The disease tetanus bacillus would be a nasty one to get. I felt queasy after injection and my arm hurt from the shot, but I would rather have that than:
| Quote: | | an infectious, often fatal disease caused by a specific bacterium that enters the body through wounds and characterized by respiratory paralysis and tonic spasms and rigidity of the voluntary muscles, esp. those of the neck and lower jaw. |
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Heck, most college students (myself included) are vaccinated against meningococcal meningitis. That one's not too pleasant either. |
Hostile germs... why vaccination was developed. Who wants small pox?
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Deum meum culpabant ob toto malo, sed Deum meum laudabo ob toto bono. |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 2582
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | Odin wrote: | | LeKiwi wrote: | | I'm not paranoid |
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. Paranoid people by definition will think they aren't paranoid, because they think their paranoid thinking is true. |
Ad hominem. For the validity of your case does not rest with your ability to ridicule, you may hence keep to facts instead of insults. |
Well, this was in the context of LeKiwi's rejection of all available medical and scientific authorities for information on the efficacy and safety of vaccination, evidently on the basis of a supposed conspiracy involving the government and the pharmaceutical corporations. When challenged on the absurdity of these claims, she insisted that she was not being paranoid. It's difficult to argue the facts with someone who will not allow facts into the debate. It wasn't really ridicule so much as a plea for LeKiwi to acknowledge that she has to seriously reconsider her worldview if there is to be any productive discussion.
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iamnotaparakeet
Enemy of Wal-Mart!!!
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Age: 22
Posts: 9100
Location: 44.7N 93.6W
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | Odin wrote: | | LeKiwi wrote: | | I'm not paranoid |
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. Paranoid people by definition will think they aren't paranoid, because they think their paranoid thinking is true. |
Ad hominem. For the validity of your case does not rest with your ability to ridicule, you may hence keep to facts instead of insults. |
Well, this was in the context of LeKiwi's rejection of all available medical and scientific authorities for information on the efficacy and safety of vaccination, evidently on the basis of a supposed conspiracy involving the government and the pharmaceutical corporations. When challenged on the absurdity of these claims, she insisted that she was not being paranoid. It's difficult to argue the facts with someone who will not allow facts into the debate. It wasn't really ridicule so much as a plea for LeKiwi to acknowledge that she has to seriously reconsider her worldview if there is to be any productive discussion. |
The towards the man fallacy is still itself no matter the justification.
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Deum meum culpabant ob toto malo, sed Deum meum laudabo ob toto bono. |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 2582
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | The towards the man fallacy is still itself no matter the justification. |
Are you employing argumentum ad logicam, which is itself a fallacy? Really, to be a valid point an argument doesn't always have to be rigidly logically constructed, though it is helpful.
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iamnotaparakeet
Enemy of Wal-Mart!!!
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Age: 22
Posts: 9100
Location: 44.7N 93.6W
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | The towards the man fallacy is still itself no matter the justification. |
Are you employing argumentum ad logicam, which is itself a fallacy? Really, to be a valid point an argument doesn't always have to be rigidly logically constructed, though it is helpful. |
Look, Le Kiwi is incorrect. If a person doesn't listen, should you ignore them or insult them? Really now, what does it gain a person? Does ridiculing a person edify them, or does it just give pleasure to the person giving the insult?
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Deum meum culpabant ob toto malo, sed Deum meum laudabo ob toto bono. |
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