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Sedaka
Searching For My Catcher in the Rye
Joined: Jul 17, 2006
Age: 26
Posts: 5067
Location: In the recesses of my mind
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 Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | Sedaka wrote: |
hmm okay... maybe i've taken too many evo courses to remember... guess they didn't focus so much on that for me in my intro bio courses (guess im gett old)
i do remember comisserating with all the intro bio students in my courses that they had to learn about DNA replication and blah blah blah... at a VERY moldcular level.... hell, i didnt get to that stuff til my junior year undergrad in a molec bio course.... and here we are tossin it out at newbies. |
So what DID they teach in your intro bio courses? |
all i remember is earth science... and some simple physiology... both animals and plants, like life cycles ect and cell types involved. then some molecular things like enzymatic reactions and cell biology. idk. i already knew about evolution so maybe i'm forgetting... i know i had SOME in my 2nd yr of general bio courses for the major (my 2nd yr was geared more towards ecology and such, so it fit in better there i guess)... but i don't remember it in the first yr... and most places MAYBE require a yr of bio for non-majors.
idk. but i retract the statement cause i do guess they probably have at least a lecture on it in gen classes... but a class strictly on evolution.... pure elective.
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iamnotaparakeet
Venator draconum
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Age: 22
Posts: 10843
Location: Insula internicivum draconum.
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 3:17 am Post subject: |
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Even without the just-so stories, cladograms, homoplasies being called homologies, and all the rest, biology would be a study of natural economics. Biology would still make sense even outside of the unnecessary misotheistic-evolutionary framework.
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Izaak
Squeeky Bathtime Companion
Joined: Jun 11, 2007
Posts: 1154
Location: Perth, Western Australia
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | Even without the just-so stories, cladograms, homoplasies being called homologies, and all the rest, biology would be a study of natural economics. Biology would still make sense even outside of the unnecessary misotheistic-evolutionary framework. |
what nonsense. Evolution is a framework that allows for the better understanding of biological process and leads to a more complete knowledge of the gestalt forces surrounding biological processes and what gives rise to speciation events, it allows biologists to understand the mechanisms at play when looking at any number of things. To the results of an opposable thumb to the reason white moths die out in smoggy cities but gray one's flourish.
Evolution is an aspect of knowledge. Once acquired we move on to discover the next truth about reality. We don't discard it because religious people get offended. We used to do that... that's why they were called the Dark Ages. |
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Quatermass
Yahtzee's Protege
Joined: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 16475
Location: Somewhere with a sweet hat and a chip on my shoulder
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | Even without the just-so stories, cladograms, homoplasies being called homologies, and all the rest, biology would be a study of natural economics. Biology would still make sense even outside of the unnecessary misotheistic-evolutionary framework. |
Can you blame science for being misotheistic? Even when looking at conventional biology (as opposed to physics and astronomy), scientists got into trouble with the Church (da Vinci comes to mind).
In any case, biology would not make sense, unless God has an extremely perverse sense of humour. While that would explain a few things, I am yet to receive his RSVP for my invitation to join the club comedy circuit.
Evolution is not perfect, nor does it claim to be. God, according to all accounts, is. And yet, we are imperfect beings, full of defects. You try to tell me that is divine will, and I will defenestrate you. Through plate glass.
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Gromit
Velociraptor
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Joined: May 20, 2006
Posts: 478
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: Re: Of what real value is evolutionary "knowledge" |
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Ragtime, I suggest you read the journal Evolutionary Applications. I promise it is a more reliable source of information than the one you gave me. You still haven't told me what you were thinking of when telling me I could learn something about evolution from that site, with arguments so poor that they only serve to make opponents of evolution look like complete idiots.
| iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | misotheistic-evolutionary framework |
I keep hearing that evolution is opposed to God, but haven't yet seen any evidence for it. Can you provide that evidence? |
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Griff
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 17, 2006
Posts: 1615
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Of what real value is evolutionary "knowledge" |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | I'm not talking about social value; not talking about getting along with your peers. I want to know how evolutionary knowledge helps you become a better biologist, BESIDES the fact that the other biologists publicly assent to evolution (even while many privately doubt it, instead choosing to study from a design/engineering perspective). |
It helps us to understand the origin and development of living things on this world.
| Quote: | | How are biologists who don't believe in evolution able to keep their careers, which they indeed are able to do, if disavowal of evolution makes them incompetent at their jobs? |
Biologists are not required to accept evolution in order to keep their jobs. The evidence overwhelmingly supports the theory, though.
| Quote: | | It does not make them any less knowledgable about the proven facts of biology. Not one iota. |
Yes it does. It makes them wrong about the origin of life on Earth.
| Quote: | | Evolution is now completely political, |
No. Creationism is completely political.
| Quote: | | and its membership of believers is held together through intimidation from colleagues, |
Most professors of biology I've had are almost shy about broaching the subject, and they go out of their way to make their students more comfortable with discussing the idea. They're accomodating to the point of being freaking doormats.
| Quote: | | Believing that man came from soup does not help one study cells, nerves, chemical reactions within the body, or any other hard science. |
Understanding our relationship with choanoflagellates could have tremendous impacts on modern medicine.
| Quote: | | Evolution is extraneous to all of that. |
You are mistaken. It's integral to modern genetics.
| Quote: | | And particularly since evolution has not been proven, |
Again, you are mistaken. In fact, it fits in pretty well with what we know of nature.
| Quote: | | It sits there upon the science landscape, an empty shrine around which to congregate and bow down oneself |
It's nothing of the sort, you freaking Creationist pothead. |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3208
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | misotheistic-evolutionary framework. |
Will you stop with this nonsense? Not all evolutionists are atheists! MOST Christians are evolutionists! Its only a handful of fringe lunatics like yourself that believe evolution is incompatible with religion.
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1884
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | misotheistic-evolutionary framework. |
Will you stop with this nonsense? Not all evolutionists are atheists! MOST Christians are evolutionists! Its only a handful of fringe lunatics like yourself that believe evolution is incompatible with religion. |
In the deluded minds of those fringe lunatics scientific, naturalistic explanations of the world are nothing but the "religion" of "nihilistic godless secular humanism." They see science as part of a non-existant "atheist ideology."
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7392
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | misotheistic-evolutionary framework. |
Will you stop with this nonsense? Not all evolutionists are atheists! MOST Christians are evolutionists! Its only a handful of fringe lunatics like yourself that believe evolution is incompatible with religion. |
There is far, far, FAR more evidence for God than there is for evolution. Therefore, I definitely believe in God, but evolution is still very shaky at best.
If evolution is an elective, and it's not required for the successful pursuit of biological study, THEN WHY ALL THE PRESSURE TO UNEQUIVOCALLY TEACH EVOLUTION IN THE SCHOOLS, ALLOWING NO QUESTIONING OF IT WHATSOEVER, AND OUTLAWING ID?
If it's so unimportant to the pursuit of hard science, why is it DEMANDED that the teacher allow room for no other possibility than evolution? It hasn't been proven, so it's basically a fairytale that's drilled into students' heads as fact, by biased leaders who personally dislike God.
Evolution is like a Greek Mythology class where you're told that the mythology is actually true, that Apollo and Athena are real, etc. 
If you believe in evolution, for which there is no conclusive evidence, then you should easily believe in God, for whom there is evidence ALL AROUND YOU! 
Last edited by Ragtime on Sat May 10, 2008 11:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Gromit
Velociraptor
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Joined: May 20, 2006
Posts: 478
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | It hasn't been proven |
You keep saying that, but when asked to back that up all you had to offer was a link to a web site with arguments ranging from poor to ridiculous. So let's approach this another way. What would you accept as evidence for evolution? Or even proof? Is there anything that could persuade you? |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7392
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| Gromit wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | It hasn't been proven |
You keep saying that, but when asked to back that up |
Uh, how can one back up proof of a negative? I can't show you non-proof.
| Gromit wrote: | | What would you accept as evidence for evolution? Or even proof? Is there anything that could persuade you? |
There is nothing that could persuade me, it is safe to say. I mean, I've heard all the best arguments for years and years -- and they're utter CRAP!  |
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Delirium
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 25, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 558
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: |
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"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution." - The title of an essay by Theodosius Dobzhansky
It's pretty much the string that ties it all together. It's the foundation of epidemiology (viruses and bacteria evolve all the time), zoology, paleontology, and pretty much everything else in biology.
(By the way, Dobzhansky was also a Christian and "Nothing in Biology..." is about reconciling evolution with Christianity, and Darwin was a Christian for most of his life but lost his faith after his daughter died, not after publishing On The Origin of Species.)
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3208
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | misotheistic-evolutionary framework. |
Will you stop with this nonsense? Not all evolutionists are atheists! MOST Christians are evolutionists! Its only a handful of fringe lunatics like yourself that believe evolution is incompatible with religion. |
There is far, far, FAR more evidence for God than there is for evolution. Therefore, I definitely believe in God, but evolution is still very shaky at best. |
There's a ton of evidence for evolution.
| Quote: | | If evolution is an elective, and it's not required for the successful pursuit of biological study, THEN WHY ALL THE PRESSURE TO UNEQUIVOCALLY TEACH EVOLUTION IN THE SCHOOLS, ALLOWING NO QUESTIONING OF IT WHATSOEVER, AND OUTLAWING ID? |
1. Because it IS required for the successful pursuit of biological study, as has already been explained in this thread.
2. You can question anything, as long as you bring relevant facts to the table. Creationists don't.
3. ID is not taught because it is a load of bull with no scientific basis, and only very shaky theological basis.
| Quote: | If it's so unimportant to the pursuit of hard science, why is it DEMANDED that the teacher allow room for no other possibility than evolution? It hasn't been proven, so it's basically a fairytale that's drilled into students' heads as fact, by biased leaders who personally dislike God.
Evolution is like a Greek Mythology class where you're told that the mythology is actually true, that Apollo and Athena are real, etc. |
1. Why is it demanded that the teacher allow room for no other possibility than Newtonian mechanics? Why not also teach Aristotelian physics?
2. Personally hate God? You are an idiot and a bigot. MOST CHRISTIANS ACCEPT EVOLUTION YOU DOLT!! My biology teacher is Christian! So am I!
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Last edited by Orwell on Sat May 10, 2008 11:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3208
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | Gromit wrote: | | What would you accept as evidence for evolution? Or even proof? Is there anything that could persuade you? |
There is nothing that could persuade me, it is safe to say. I mean, I've heard all the best arguments for years and years -- and they're utter CRAP! |
You admit at least that you will not be bound to reality by saying that nothing could persuade you to change your views. Even Luther, while starting the Reformation, allowed for the possibility of changing his views if he were shown to be wrong. And you evidently haven't heard very many arguments for evolution, if you believe they are all crap. I've heard all the arguments for Creationism, and those are among the most poorly-constructed arguments I've ever seen in my life. Seriously, it's about as easy to construct a good argument for geocentrism as for creationism.
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3208
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | Gromit wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | It hasn't been proven |
You keep saying that, but when asked to back that up |
Uh, how can one back up proof of a negative? I can't show you non-proof. |
Isn't that normally the argument employed by atheists? And even that statement betrays a serious misunderstanding of the issue. Evolution is a scientific concept. If you can find evidence that contradicts evolution, or propose an alternate theory that does a better job of explaining the data, then you could refute evolution. However, there is not currently any evidence available that contradicts the basic ideas of evolution, and no alternate theory does a more effective job of explaining the evidence we do have.
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