Actually, evolution IS a fact. Evolution by natural selection is a theory.
im tryin to work with ppl here
i would still consider evolution a theory cause the observable is: change over time (as i was allowed to say in public schools)... and evolution is just an explanation for this observance. natural selection, genetic drift, ect... are also theories, but they are nested in evolution.
it's all semantical anyway... which is why people argue over it.
Well, evolution (that things change) is just historical fact. We've observed it happen. Natural selection is the theory, as is genetic drift and all the other components. But evolution itself can't really be denied any moreso than gravity. Actually, I would view gravity as being more in jeopardy than evolution because of the conflicts between quantum mechanics and general relativity... physicists are pretty confused over that one. Evolution doesn't really have any such fundamental difficulty. _________________ WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
i would still consider evolution a theory cause the observable is: change over time (as i was allowed to say in public schools)... and evolution is just an explanation for this observance. natural selection, genetic drift, ect... are also theories, but they are nested in evolution.
it's all semantical anyway... which is why people argue over it.
Yeah, the common use of the words has lead to a misunderstanding that creationists (among others) have seized upon.
Joined: Jul 17, 2006 Age: 26 Posts: 5133 Location: In the recesses of my mind
Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 4:26 pm Post subject:
Kalister1 wrote:
Sedaka wrote:
Kalister1 wrote:
Sedaka wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
All this arguing brings me to my secondary point: Of what real value is all this arguing about evolution? What grand good is going to be accomplished if creationists begin to believe in evolution? WTF is gonna change the world for the better if creationists became converted to believe in a politicized "science" that has not been proven conclusively to have occurred, or to be in the process of occurring?
Well, the value is that it prevents bad science from getting into the school system and justifies the proper conclusions.
Note to AG: politicized science IS bad science! The bad science in the classroom stops with evolution ceasing to be taught as a fact! Teach it as what it is, a near-retarded theory. (Sorry for insulting your religion.)
we do teach it as a theory and not as fact. sorry but it's true... just like physics teaches theory.
i don't care what adjectives you choose to associate it with.
Actually, evolution IS a fact. Evolution by natural selection is a theory.
im tryin to work with ppl here
i would still consider evolution a theory cause the observable is: change over time (as i was allowed to say in public schools)... and evolution is just an explanation for this observance. natural selection, genetic drift, ect... are also theories, but they are nested in evolution.
it's all semantical anyway... which is why people argue over it.
The semantics are important in this case, since people want to nitpick over fact, theory, etc.
Evolution is as much a fact as gravity is.
yes... but TECHNICALLY even gravity is a theory...
i have told Ragtime a few times before (a long time ago) to go jump off a cliff... as a sort of joking rebuttal to this sort of thing (<3)
but i still say it's meritable to call these things theory... especially since when they were initially investigated... the answer wasn't really that obvious... you can't just look at the world and divine these sorts of things. _________________ and yet i'm
still roaming these
empty streets at night
alone again only to find
there are no shelters here;
i must simply resolve
to play in the rain.
Joined: Dec 18, 2005 Posts: 5725 Location: United States
Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject:
Ragtime wrote:
That Mr. Stein was added to the list of people Orwell hates is a red flag.
Not really, what he said WAS pretty stupid and arrogantly so. I'd get angry about something that wrong myself, especially in a field I cared about.
Quote:
One would not need to be dishonest in any way to point out that the evidence (the evidence honestly arrived at, that is) shows evolution to be shabby and full of holes. By contrast, God is personally real to billions of people all over the world. Not just that, but the Bible shows far more scientific and historical proof of being true than the theory of evolution.
ID isn't an attempt to point out the holes, it is an attempt at a counter-theory, which is intellectually dishonest because ID is does not have evidence for it so much as evidence against evolution. Also, Raggy, the first part isn't evidence as that is an appeal to popularity, and the second isn't even that true given all of the unverified and unverifiable things that occurred in that book.
Quote:
Scientists' pathetic defenses of evolution are laughable and sad, and quite clearly twisted and biased toward perpetuating their own careers.
Remember: just because a scientist makes a claim does not mean that claim is necessarily scientific.
Um... no, they are actually very well thought out, and seem reflective of some intellectual honesty. Frankly, Raggy, I hear enough technocrats, Marxists, and other groups arguing that economists are buffoons to take that claim by you, a person who does not seem to be a biologist or to have studied any great measure of biology, with any measure of seriousness. Trust me, I know that, I also know a bit about science, so I know that IDers are not making scientific claims despite that some of their members are scientists and that Evolutionary theorists are making scientific claims despite the fact that some fools are casting aspersions on them.
Quote:
Oh, I understand it very well. Hate is man's natural response toward those who annoy him. Quite a Godless reaction, congratulations! Guess you guys at least prove that God isn't real in your personal lives, but as I explained in another thread recently, the ostrich-head-in-the-sand strategy is not valid for disproving God. Just cuz you don't recognize Him doesn't mean there's a lack of evidence of His existence.
Yeah.... sure. Raggy, you have not even put forward any good evidence anyway for his existence, just proclaimed that the evidence is all around us without the cognizance that there is a matter of interpreting the data to get this "evidence". Frankly, if anything, you seem more of a disservice to Christian apologetics, which often seems pretty poor as is, than a boon.
Joined: Jul 17, 2006 Age: 26 Posts: 5133 Location: In the recesses of my mind
Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 4:31 pm Post subject:
Orwell wrote:
Sedaka wrote:
Kalister1 wrote:
Actually, evolution IS a fact. Evolution by natural selection is a theory.
im tryin to work with ppl here
i would still consider evolution a theory cause the observable is: change over time (as i was allowed to say in public schools)... and evolution is just an explanation for this observance. natural selection, genetic drift, ect... are also theories, but they are nested in evolution.
it's all semantical anyway... which is why people argue over it.
Well, evolution (that things change) is just historical fact. We've observed it happen. Natural selection is the theory, as is genetic drift and all the other components. But evolution itself can't really be denied any moreso than gravity. Actually, I would view gravity as being more in jeopardy than evolution because of the conflicts between quantum mechanics and general relativity... physicists are pretty confused over that one. Evolution doesn't really have any such fundamental difficulty.
im agreeing with you that the observed differences and similarities between organisms across time is a FACT
but EVOLUTION is a theory for explaining this. just as the biblical view is a theory... the difference is that evolution is a scientific theory, where creationism is not.
IMHO- conceding that evolution is a theory does not take away from what it is. just teach what we know and people will decide for themselves. if people question it (which apparently they can't)... there is always a sensible answer... which more often than not, will instill in people's minds that evolution actually did (is) happen(ing) _________________ and yet i'm
still roaming these
empty streets at night
alone again only to find
there are no shelters here;
i must simply resolve
to play in the rain.
im agreeing with you that the observed differences and similarities between organisms across time is a FACT
but EVOLUTION is a theory for explaining this. just as the biblical view is a theory... the difference is that evolution is a scientific theory, where creationism is not.
IMHO- conceding that evolution is a theory does not take away from what it is. just teach what we know and people will decide for themselves. if people question it (which apparently they can't)... there is always a sensible answer... which more often than not, will instill in people's minds that evolution actually did (is) happen(ing)
Using the word "theory" to refer to something that's not a scientific theory in this context is just going to help perpetuate the confusion, I think.
Joined: Apr 28, 2006 Posts: 16832 Location: Somewhere with a sweet hat and a chip on my shoulder
Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 10:25 pm Post subject: Re: Of what real value is evolutionary "knowledge"
Ragtime wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
biologists publicly assent to evolution even while many privately doubt it
Substantiate this claim or recant it.
It's just common sense.
But where's your stake? Aren't you supposed to burn me at it after you said "Recant" and I didn't?
Common sense is not so common. And as for burning you at the stake, I'd rather break you on the wheel. _________________ At moments when monsters spawn in by rising up from the ground, it turns the action into a gory, protracted session of Whack-A-Mole.
-Yahtzee on Clive Barker's Jericho
Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: Re: Of what real value is evolutionary "knowledge"
Ragtime wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
biologists publicly assent to evolution even while many privately doubt it
Substantiate this claim or recant it.
It's just common sense.
But where's your stake? Aren't you supposed to burn me at it after you said "Recant" and I didn't?
I've never heard of scientists burning people at the stake for holding different views, even if those views are demonstratably wrong.
And no, it's not "just common sense." No more so than is the statement that astronomers publicly assent a a heliocentric solar system even while many privately doubt it. The two statements are equivalent, but no one would accept the example I gave as realistic. Your claim is dishonest and makes claims for which you have absolutely no basis in fact.
But then, I guess that's the thrust of ID to begin with. _________________ WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: Re: Of what real value is evolutionary "knowledge"
Quatermass wrote:
And as for burning you at the stake, I'd rather break you on the wheel.
If we're going to insist on going back to medieval execution methods, I'm rather partial to drawing and quartering myself. _________________ WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
All this arguing brings me to my secondary point: Of what real value is all this arguing about evolution? What grand good is going to be accomplished if creationists begin to believe in evolution? WTF is gonna change the world for the better if creationists became converted to believe in a politicized "science" that has not been proven conclusively to have occurred, or to be in the process of occurring?
Well, the value is that it prevents bad science from getting into the school system and justifies the proper conclusions.
Note to AG: politicized science IS bad science! The bad science in the classroom stops with evolution ceasing to be taught as a fact! Teach it as what it is, a near-retarded theory. (Sorry for insulting your religion.)
we do teach it as a theory and not as fact. sorry but it's true...
I would love for that to be true, but I've heard too many leading experts on evolution literally cry out that "Evolution is a fact". Carl Sagan went as far as to declare: "Evolution is a fact, not a theory. It DID HAPPEN." (Boldface representing his inflections.)
That kind of statement is unmistakeable in what it's attempting to claim. And he's not the only one saying this -- I hear it everywhere I go! C'mon, you can't fool me on this.
Joined: Sep 09, 2007 Posts: 2882 Location: California
Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 10:33 pm Post subject:
Ragtime wrote:
Sedaka wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
All this arguing brings me to my secondary point: Of what real value is all this arguing about evolution? What grand good is going to be accomplished if creationists begin to believe in evolution? WTF is gonna change the world for the better if creationists became converted to believe in a politicized "science" that has not been proven conclusively to have occurred, or to be in the process of occurring?
Well, the value is that it prevents bad science from getting into the school system and justifies the proper conclusions.
Note to AG: politicized science IS bad science! The bad science in the classroom stops with evolution ceasing to be taught as a fact! Teach it as what it is, a near-retarded theory. (Sorry for insulting your religion.)
we do teach it as a theory and not as fact. sorry but it's true...
I would love for that to be true, but I've heard too many leading experts on evolution literally cry out that "Evolution is a fact". Carl Sagan went as far as to declare: "Evolution is a fact, not a theory. It DID HAPPEN." (Boldface representing his inflections.)
That kind of statement is unmistakeable in what it's attempting to claim. And he's not the only one saying this -- I hear it everywhere I go! C'mon, you can't fool me on this.
It is a fact. The THEORY portion is Natural Selection. Here is the video where Carl Sagan explains it (He understands it, how can't you?) :
_________________ Warghh!!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by Kalister1 on Sun May 11, 2008 10:41 pm; edited 3 times in total
I would love for that to be true, but I've heard too many leading experts on evolution literally cry out that "Evolution is a fact". Carl Sagan went as far as to declare: "Evolution is a fact, not a theory. It DID HAPPEN." (Boldface representing his inflections.)
That kind of statement is unmistakeable in what it's attempting to claim. And he's not the only one saying this -- I hear it everywhere I go! C'mon, you can't fool me on this.
Why do you not believe evolution has occurred? Evolution, strictly speaking, is both a theory and a fact. A fact in that species change and diverge. This has been observed, and it really can't be disputed. A theory in that it attempts to provide consistent explanations as to how these things occurs and makes testable predictions. A theory can simultaneously be a fact, as in the theory of universal gravitation or the theory of general relativity. Even the germ theory of disease. The germ theory of disease is undoubtedly a fact.
I'm not trying to fool you on anything. Evolution IS a fact. You can challenge that notion in my other thread if you like. _________________ WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
Joined: Jul 17, 2006 Age: 26 Posts: 5133 Location: In the recesses of my mind
Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 10:44 pm Post subject: Re: Of what real value is evolutionary "knowledge"
Ragtime wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
biologists publicly assent to evolution even while many privately doubt it
Substantiate this claim or recant it.
It's just common sense.
But where's your stake? Aren't you supposed to burn me at it after you said "Recant" and I didn't?
wow.... _________________ and yet i'm
still roaming these
empty streets at night
alone again only to find
there are no shelters here;
i must simply resolve
to play in the rain.
Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 10:46 pm Post subject: Re: Of what real value is evolutionary "knowledge"
Sedaka wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
biologists publicly assent to evolution even while many privately doubt it
Substantiate this claim or recant it.
It's just common sense.
But where's your stake? Aren't you supposed to burn me at it after you said "Recant" and I didn't?
wow....
I'm telling you, there's a whole ton of closet-case Ptolemaics in the astronomy profession too. Not to mention all the Aristotelians in the engineering world who KNOW in their hearts that really F≠ma and inertia is a lie of the devil! _________________ WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
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