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Quatermass
Yahtzee's Protege
Joined: Apr 28, 2006
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 Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:46 am Post subject: |
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| BazzaMcKenzie wrote: | I don't believe ID is a theory. Evolution is. If there is any credible evidence to support ID, I would like to see a link to it.
IMHO ID is just an argument that was invented by creationists to replace the "theory" of creationism is about as credible as the world being flat. |
Thank you, Bazza, for some Aussie common sense. 
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Orwell
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Ragtime, I'm still waiting. I'll give it to the end of this month. By then you should have been able to skim through some of the articles form the Biologic Institute and post links to any you find interesting. Thanks in advance.
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CityAsylum
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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Orwell, you might not want to wait standing up - Ragtime usually ditches threads that have gone wrong for him! 
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Orwell
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| CityAsylum wrote: | | Orwell, you might not want to wait standing up - Ragtime usually ditches threads that have gone wrong for him! |
Don't worry, I have plenty to do in the meantime. Like study some more bio before going off to college. Anyways, let's try to cut back on the personal attacks here. I really honestly do want to have a discussion over the merits and flaws of evolutionary theory vs ID, but no one seems willing to step up to represent the ID side. Gromit and I were hypothesizing earlier about what IDers might say, but that's a poor substitute as we can't know what they think.
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CityAsylum
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | Anyways, let's try to cut back on the personal attacks here. |
QFT, in context, I was responding in tone to your comment about Ragtime, and it was meant to be jocular:
| Orwell wrote: | | I won't even touch on your supreme arrogance here. |
But, yeah, it is an interesting topic - when I get home I may try to find some ID support that is presented in a convincing way, but as you know, there isn't much of it lying around anywhere!
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Quatermass
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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You present Paley's Watch, and I'll take a hammer to it.
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CityAsylum
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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*furtively Googles Paley's Watch*
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BazzaMcKenzie
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| CityAsylum wrote: | | *furtively Googles Paley's Watch* |
me too
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmaker_analogy
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Orwell
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quatermass wrote: | | You present Paley's Watch, and I'll take a hammer to it. |
Paley's watch sounds feasible. However, it seems to break down under scrutiny. It seems to me to be essentially another form of Behe's "irreducible complexity" argument. Now, I'm no fan of Dawkins personally because of his views on my religion, but science is science regardless of where it comes from. Blind Watchmaker and Scaling Mount Improbable deal rather harsh blows to the idea of irreducible complexity. The problem with Paley's watch is that it assumes that evolution claims something to occur all at once when in reality evolution would predict it occurring gradually over time.
EDIT: I almost forgot my customary invitation to any dissenting views to join our discussion. I would appreciate some input from the normally vocal creationist side. This means you, Ragtime.
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CityAsylum
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Quatermass wrote: | | You present Paley's Watch, and I'll take a hammer to it. |
Well, no danger of that; Paley's watchmaker analogy would dissolve in its own simplistic puddle of silliness before you'd even have time to pull out your hammer. Do people in this day and age still cite that, really?
Guess I'll have to find something SOLID - slim pickings so far. 
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BazzaMcKenzie
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 12:06 am Post subject: |
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Now that you sparked my interest, I have gone looking for evidence to support an ID argument.
The best argument I found was in the court case Tammy Kitzmiller, et al. v. Dover Area School District, et al. (Pa, USA) in which the judge handed down a 136 page finding of facts. http://www.pamd.uscourts.gov/kitzmiller/kitzmiller_342.pdf
However the court held against ID: "Teaching intelligent design in public school biology classes violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States (and Article I, Section 3 of the Pennsylvania State Constitution) because intelligent design is not science and "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents."
I'm still looking ....
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SotiCoto
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Joined: May 14, 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 6:40 am Post subject: |
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... Are you saying there are actually creationists in a place like this?!
And furthermore, are you saying that for every creationist we have levelled our arguments and evidence at in the past.... we have to go through the whole malarky all over again for the next one, DESPITE the fact that they will completely disacknowledge it anyway?
Even assuming creationists deserve any respect or to be treated as more than benthic foraminifera is a waste of time and an act of wishful thinking.
But rest assured, if any creationists present themselves before me... then I can guarantee that any among them willing to listen will be educated. My Palaeobiology degree from UCL isn't just for show, y'know. |
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Orwell
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| BazzaMcKenzie wrote: | Now that you sparked my interest, I have gone looking for evidence to support an ID argument.
The best argument I found was in the court case Tammy Kitzmiller, et al. v. Dover Area School District, et al. (Pa, USA) in which the judge handed down a 136 page finding of facts. http://www.pamd.uscourts.gov/kitzmiller/kitzmiller_342.pdf
However the court held against ID: "Teaching intelligent design in public school biology classes violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States (and Article I, Section 3 of the Pennsylvania State Constitution) because intelligent design is not science and "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents."
I'm still looking .... |
Ugh. Can you give page numbers for any useful information? I don't have the time or attention span right now to read 136 pages of court opinion.
I'm still waiting for the other side to show up. Hint. Hint.
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BazzaMcKenzie
Wild colonial man
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:39 am Post subject: |
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wikipedia has a summary - search kitzmiller
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PLA
Phoenix
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 5:21 am Post subject: Another not at all helpful post (sorry): |
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I was looking forward to seeing some fun discussion going on here.
Disappointment . . . 
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