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Orwell
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 Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| LeKiwi wrote: | | I'd agree to that, provided it was some kind of a home quarantine rather than a state imprisonment and provisions were made for things like food supplies to be dropped in somehow. |
No, I definitely wouldn't want to be rounding up everyone who's ill and sending them to concentration camps. I would just rather they not be out and about in crowded places.
| Quote: | | There is always going to be the few days before symptoms show where people can spread the disease around, but that's going to be the case whether you're vaccinated or not - people who are vaccinated can just as easily get the bugs as people who aren't vaccinated, |
This I disagree with. Vaccines have been useful in preventing disease. They're not foolproof (nothing ever is) but they do usually work. I got the varicella vaccination, and it's worked pretty well- I still have never had chicken pox.
| Quote: | | You just have to hope it doesn't happen in the first place, I suppose. A strong immune system IS effective against measles; you're far less likely to catch the disease in the first place, and if you do get it then it's less likely to be severe or result in complications. |
Measles is extremely contagious (R-naught=12-16) so most people are susceptible to it, even if they do have a strong immune system. Plus, it's largely a childhood disease, so the immune system isn't always fully developed yet, which increases the risk of complications.
| Quote: | As for mercury, unfortunately it is still in quite a few of them... not so much the childhood ones, though it is in all the flu ones which they're now pushing for every year from age 2.  |
I've never had a flu vaccine, and I would really prefer if in that case they would stick with the old system of only vaccinating high-risk populations (health-care workers) and those unlikely to survive a bout of flu (the elderly). There ARE several different flu vaccines available, and not all of them have mercury. Even the brands of flu vaccine that have mercury, you can order it in single doses and not have mercury. As for the other ones (I believe you actually posted a link once with a listing of all of these vaccines?) mercury is used in the production process, but there isn't really any measurable amount left in the finished product.
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beau99
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Location: A cruel H*llhole called Earth.
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| LeKiwi wrote: |
As for mercury, unfortunately it is still in quite a few of them... not so much the childhood ones, though it is in all the flu ones which they're now pushing for every year from age 2. |
There is a mercury-free alternative flu shot, though it is currently in limited quantities due to demand outnumbering the supply.
As for others that still contain it, only except to have those in case of an anthrax epidemic, or if you plan on traveling to Japan.
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LeKiwi
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Japan? I never had any jabs when I went to Japan... what ones are they?
The problem with the mercury-free ones is exactly that; they aren't widely available, most places won't stock them, and most people won't think to ask for them. Plus, as I've said before, it isn't solely the mercury that I'm worried about, it's pretty much everything in them... especially the aluminium, formeldehyde, various cells from various parts of various animals, live viruses (and 'dead'/'weakened' viruses), and free glutamates. I avoid them in everything I eat - I follow a very strict but very healthy diet - and won't put anything chemical or refined past my lips, so the thought of injecting myself with them or injecting my children with them just makes me want to stick a needle in my eye or something, I can't think of much worse. And yeah, that's probably the Aspergers coming into it a bit - I'm sure you know about things becoming a bit obsessive and a bit rigid and being very stubborn about them - but that just makes me even more firm in my saying 'no' to them.
Mercury-free is a good start, but it doesn't mean they're safe by any means. And who knows what all those things do when mixed together, either? There are so many chemicals that are safe on their own but when mixed with other things suddenly turn noxious and there just hasn't been the research to see the effects of all the various ingredients in all their potential/probably combinations for me to agree to it.
You're right though, Orwell, flu vaccines should stick with people who are more likely to get it. The thing is though, I wouldn't be keen on giving it to those who are vulnerable because it does tend to make people sick afterwards for a few days at least, and if they already have a weakened immune system then that can lead to problems potentially worse than letting them risk getting it naturally anyway. I don't know one person who hasn't had complications from that vaccine - everyone seems to get flu or bronchitis or laryngitis or other lung/chest/throat infections right after it (like, the next day). It's not like a few people getting a sore arm from a jab, or a few kids potentially 'getting autism', it's a very strong, very well-documented pattern, I really can't work it out. I do know what flu's like (I had it three times last year, all related though...) and it's awful, it does knock you for a long time. I went to the doctor five times before I tried a naturopath who had me better in about four days. But the 36,000 deaths statistic is a fallacy and a lie, it doesn't affect that many people and it isn't that big a problem. Unless we're talking 1918 flu pandemic type stuff. Then it clearly is a problem. 
As for chicken pox... I've had it, no big deal. Bit itchy for a few days, bit of a fever, probably annoyed my parents a bit, but nothing major. I don't know anyone who didn't have it as a child and I don't know anyone with kids who doesn't take their kids to play with infected children so they can get it young either. I don't know what kind of information they feed you over there so you'll get the vaccine but it's really not a big problem disease at all, that I can assure you - I couldn't believe it when I heard there was a vaccine for it!! Measles I can understand, TB I can understand, polio I can understand... but chicken pox?! Nah.
I dunno... I think you just need to understand where I'm coming from. I come from a background where doctors have never done anything except make me ill, and natural remedies have always worked spectacularly. I follow (in my stubborn, firm, autistic manner) an extremely strict diet of nothing chemical or refined or sweetened or processed. I live for helping people naturally - all I try to do in life and all I want to do in life is help people. I avoid pollutants and toxins as much as possible and go out of my way to do so. So do you see that with that in mind, vaccines and their ingredients really can't sit well with me? It's not about being ridiculous and blasé and gung-ho and stupid - these diseases are real and they are horrific - but it is about having some common sense and being sensible. I don't vaccinate, no, but I do make every effort to make up for that by staying as healthy as possible with the strongest immune system possible, and yes, if there was a breakout of something then as soon as it happened I'd be voluntarily staying home and keeping my children home too until it passed.
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Orwell
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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As for the chicken pox, I do agree that that vaccine is largely unnecessary. The issue is that the later you get it the more unpleasant it tends to be (my dad got it when he was 30, which went very poorly for him) and since I hadn't caught it by a certain age, they decided they may as well give me the vaccine. Before giving me the shot, the doctor DID say that it would usually be just as well to wait and actually get chicken pox and waited for a couple years to see if I ever would catch it on my own.
| LeKiwi wrote: | | live viruses (and 'dead'/'weakened' viruses), |
That's how vaccines work. You can't just inject antibodies straight into someone's system (well, you could, but that would only strengthen their immune system for a couple days or so). Exposure to a form of the virus that isn't likely to make you ill is the entire premise of vaccination.
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LeKiwi
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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And that's what I have a problem with. You're talking to someone who from age 13 has eaten almost entirely organic fruit, organic veges, nuts, seeds, some grains, legumes, herbs, and occasionally organic meat or fish. That's it. If I have biscuits they're home-made, if I have cake it's home-made, I've boycotted coke and nestlé products for a decade, I won't eat anything at all with artifical sweeteners, preservatives, 'E-numbers', MSG, nitrates, sulfates, hydrogenated fats, soy, dairy products... see what I mean? Vaccines just don't fit in with that and the thought of having that stuff in my body just makes me shudder. It isn't healthy or good for you, and so it won't happen.
[I should add that that may all sound very boring and dull, but I swear the things I come up with blow my friends' 'normal' 'yummy' food out of the water in terms of flavour and colour and taste and interest..!!]
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monty
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Joined: Sep 05, 2007
Posts: 1903
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| LeKiwi wrote: | And that's what I have a problem with. You're talking to someone who from age 13 has eaten almost entirely organic fruit, organic veges, nuts, seeds, some grains, legumes, herbs, and occasionally organic meat or fish. That's it. If I have biscuits they're home-made, if I have cake it's home-made, I've boycotted coke and nestlé products for a decade, I won't eat anything at all with artifical sweeteners, preservatives, 'E-numbers', MSG, nitrates, sulfates, hydrogenated fats, soy, dairy products... see what I mean? Vaccines just don't fit in with that and the thought of having that stuff in my body just makes me shudder. It isn't healthy or good for you, and so it won't happen.
[I should add that that may all sound very boring and dull, but I swear the things I come up with blow my friends' 'normal' 'yummy' food out of the water in terms of flavour and colour and taste and interest..!!] |
Ok, I understand not wanting to eat hydrogenated fats and that whole lot. That makes sense - those are added so the big companies can produce crackers that will sit on the shelf for months or years without spoiling.
But immunization involves small amounts of bacteria or viruses which have been killed or weakened. It gives the immune system a 'heads-up' to better recognize the disease causing organisms.
It was the upper-class kids that were more likely to come down with polio (before polio vaccines all but eliminated the disease). Farm kids had an especially low rate of polio because they played in the dirt, which exposed them to bacteria and viruses, which developed their immunes systems. |
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LeKiwi
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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Exacty, and that's something I advocate. I won't use antibacterial soaps and handwashes and whatever else, and if I do I use tea tree oil (malaleuca). I should also add I don't use anything chemical to clean my house or my body. Soap nuts for my clothes washing and a general-purpose cleaner, vinegar and baking soda for everything else (with the occasional squeeze of lemon juice or tea tree oil), and totally natural chemical-free brands for my body wash, shampoo, conditioner, skincare, moisturisers, etc. Rock crystal deodorant, herbal fluoride-free toothpaste.
I'm one of these people who hates not practising what I preach. If I'm going to be advocating for a natural lifestyle free of big industry and consumerism and toxins and whatever else, I'm going to live that myself. And I'm so much happy and healthier for it - I've never felt as alive as I have done since I quit the junk a few years back.
So as much as it may be 'just a few weakened viruses' or 'killed' ones, but I just can't contemplate that.
Again, I'm not against all modern medicine, and it does have its place. Especially with trauma care - those doctors and nurses and surgeons are miracle workers, as far as I'm concerned. But for everyday health I truly feel its scope is limited and there are far better preventative measures than vaccination that work better as well. And you're right - dirt, as far as I'm concerned, is good. Kids need to get outside and to get their hands dirty and to just be kids, and their immune systems will thank them for it later.
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YowlingCat
Lick a Cat - Get a Hairball
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| monty wrote: |
It was the upper-class kids that were more likely to come down with polio (before polio vaccines all but eliminated the disease). Farm kids had an especially low rate of polio because they played in the dirt, which exposed them to bacteria and viruses, which developed their immunes systems. |
I don't know where you came up with this. I'm 55, and polio was everywhere. All classes were afflicted. I had classmates who wore braces and used crutches. Others ended up in iron-lungs.
Polio Pioneers
I remember filling up little cards with slots for dimes (March of Dimes). It was really horrible, and I'd bet not one of you younger than my generation have ever seen someone with polio. |
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LeKiwi
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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My aunt had polio, now one of her legs is longer than the other and she walks with a slight limp.
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LKL
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| the issue with chicken pox is not just that the initial infection is worse with age, although that is true; the problem is that many people get recurring shingles outbreaks, long after the initial infection, from viruses that hang around latent in the nervous system. |
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beau99
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Age: 22
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Location: A cruel H*llhole called Earth.
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| LeKiwi wrote: | | Japan? I never had any jabs when I went to Japan... what ones are they? |
According to the CDC, you are required to be vaccinated against Japanese encephalitis, and a certain strain of Avian flu (though I can't remember which at the moment).
As for chicken pox... I've had it, no big deal. Bit itchy for a few days, bit of a fever, probably annoyed my parents a bit, but nothing major.[/quote]
As someone who has had chickenpox as well, it WAS a big deal for me. I didn't get it until my brother did (he got it from someone in school, I got it from him). I was... 10 or 11 at the time.
| Quote: | | I don't know anyone who didn't have it as a child and I don't know anyone with kids who doesn't take their kids to play with infected children so they can get it young either. |
As you can see from my experience, the latter portion of your statement isn't true.
Chickenpox is not something I would wish on anyone. Not even my worst enemy.
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LeKiwi
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 3:18 am Post subject: |
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It IS true and we do do it. Why? Because the younger you get it the less severe it tends to be and the less impact it'll have on you. If you get it older - as will happen if you start trying to make it less common and avoid it - then the risks of complications go up from it. It's a simple childhood disease that most people I know had before age six with no problem; occasionally you hear of someone with a small scar from scratching at a spot too much, but that's the extent of it. I'd never even heard of shingles before I read all the US vaccine propaganda, let alone met or heard of anyone with it, which should go to show just how common it truly is. You can go on about risks of complications, but hey, the common cold carries risks of complications, a scratch from a kitten carries a risk of complication, EVERYTHING involves risks of complication, but they're marginal and usually not particularly severe.
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slowmutant
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Joined: Feb 14, 2008
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Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 3:40 am Post subject: |
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| I like the way you think, LeKiwi. |
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YowlingCat
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It's a simple childhood disease that most people I know had before age six with no problem; occasionally you hear of someone with a small scar from scratching at a spot too much, but that's the extent of it. I'd never even heard of shingles before I read all the US vaccine propaganda, let alone met or heard of anyone with it, which should go to show just how common it truly is. |
I have shingles. I worked in an assisted living facility; many of the elders had shingles. How dare you say it's propaganda. It's exquisitely painful. It comes directly from the virus that causes chickenpox, and the virus remains in your nervous system for the rest of your life. It doesn't activate in some people, but in others, such as myself and my clients, it does, and it's a terrible thing to have. |
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LeKiwi
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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It IS propaganda. I'm sorry that you have it and I'm sure it is painful and awful and nasty, I don't doubt it, but I am saying I've not ever heard of one person with it and didn't even know it was related until I read some of the propaganda coming out of the States from the people pushing for the vaccine. So clearly it's not inevitable and it's not common, like they'd have you believe.
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