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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3208
Location: Room 101
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 Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| LeKiwi wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | LeKiwi wrote: | | we-put-our-scientists-into- universities-and-have-them-pose-as- independent-scientists-so-our-dodgy-and-false-studies-look-more-believeable fame? |
Please edit this, it makes the page stretch waaay out horizontally. |
Sorry, didn't do it on my one. That better? |
thanks
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Macbeth
Thane of Bar and Cellar
Joined: May 28, 2007
Posts: 1279
Location: UK Doncaster
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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The fact that IG Farben manufactured something which was used in such an evil fashion does not automatically invalidate everything they, or their spin-offs do. The experiments carried out by Mengele and his cohorts are not neccessarily invalidated by the evilness of the scientists involved. NASA and "space program" spring to mind as examples of bastardry-in-science put to good use...
Dear old Fritz might have been a war-criminal and worthy only of a long painful death.. but does that make his science "bad" or "wrong"? And mustard gas was meant to be a war-winner at the time,....
The fact that certain companies are profiteering f**** and unscrupulous shits does not neccessarily mean that vaccination itself is wrong or that the science involved is incorrect.
Consider it in the same arena as headline grabbing.. By phrasing things in a certain way, they create interest and thus boost sales. Same as the titles of threads in these forums. Look at how I phrased this title.. its apocryphal, or at best wildly inaccurate, yet roughly reflects the vague sentiment of the original article, and drew attention thusly. At no point have the government ever said stupid people must die... at least not in public....
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Orwell
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Macbeth wrote: | | At no point have the government ever said stupid people must die... at least not in public.... |
False.
| Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote: | | Three generations of idiots is enough. |
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Macbeth
Thane of Bar and Cellar
Joined: May 28, 2007
Posts: 1279
Location: UK Doncaster
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | Macbeth wrote: | | At no point have the government ever said stupid people must die... at least not in public.... |
False.
| Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote: | | Three generations of idiots is enough. |
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Wasn't the government I was thinking of. Nor did I say such thinking was wrong, per se. Mr Holmes makes a fair point though.
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"Mindset of an aristocrat, budget of a tramp" ZGM
"I dont have to know I'm your first if I already know I'm the best" ZGM
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Macbeth wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | Macbeth wrote: | | At no point have the government ever said stupid people must die... at least not in public.... |
False.
| Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote: | | Three generations of idiots is enough. |
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Wasn't the government I was thinking of. Nor did I say such thinking was wrong, per se. Mr Holmes makes a fair point though. |
I could find other quotes of government officials espousing similar views, but that was teh easiest to come by. No he does not make a fair point. Research the history of Buck v Bell before you say things like that. I'm not into eugenics.
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Macbeth
Thane of Bar and Cellar
Joined: May 28, 2007
Posts: 1279
Location: UK Doncaster
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | Macbeth wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | Macbeth wrote: | | At no point have the government ever said stupid people must die... at least not in public.... |
False.
| Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote: | | Three generations of idiots is enough. |
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Wasn't the government I was thinking of. Nor did I say such thinking was wrong, per se. Mr Holmes makes a fair point though. |
I could find other quotes of government officials espousing similar views, but that was teh easiest to come by. No he does not make a fair point. Research the history of Buck v Bell before you say things like that. I'm not into eugenics. |
Its my belief that by dealing with utter morons on a day to day basis, I have developed a slightly right wing opinion of said morons, and whether or not they should breed, or even breathe.. and I do deal with A LOT of morons, with very few redeeming features. Deliberate obtuseness is anathema.
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"Mindset of an aristocrat, budget of a tramp" ZGM
"I dont have to know I'm your first if I already know I'm the best" ZGM
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LeKiwi
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 2205
Location: The murky waters of my mind...
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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Feel free to jump down my proverbial throat for saying this, but if you're referring to the chavs who seem to be crawling the streets everywhere at the moment yeah... I do really wonder if they are in fact another species, to be honest.
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Macbeth
Thane of Bar and Cellar
Joined: May 28, 2007
Posts: 1279
Location: UK Doncaster
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| LeKiwi wrote: | | Feel free to jump down my proverbial throat for saying this, but if you're referring to the chavs who seem to be crawling the streets everywhere at the moment yeah... I do really wonder if they are in fact another species, to be honest. |
That's them. Repulsive, malignant, pointless knuckledragging sociopathic murderers with a penchant for inbreeding, theft, and cheap gold...
See, there are two types of person affected by the potential decision to prevent school access to the un-vaccinated. One type are those making an educated decision, based upon their own research/information/beliefs NOT to have their children vaccinated, or at least avoid the MMR.. But these are also assumably the kind of people bright enough to understand the benefits of education. They will, no doubt, seek alternative means...
Then there is type two.. the feckless morons who skived school themselves anyway, whose mewling broods are festering with lice, already covered with piercings before the age of two and destined to end up haunting bus stops drinking cheap cider and kicking the f**k out of innocent people simply because theyre goths/tall/short/fat/thin/there/old/young/have an ipod... THIS generation will suffer from the sheer ignorance of their elders. Though it could be suggested that they werent likely to attend school anyway....
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"Mindset of an aristocrat, budget of a tramp" ZGM
"I dont have to know I'm your first if I already know I'm the best" ZGM
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LeKiwi
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Location: The murky waters of my mind...
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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I'd definitely agree with that statement - it makes me so sad seeing these 'chav babies' too, because for 99% of them you can just see their whole life mapped out in front of them by the time they're barely six months old, and it isn't their fault at all. But then I see the current generation of teens - bear in mind I'm not too much older than half the ones I'm talking about, I'm only 21! - and it's just scary. So many of them just seem to have lost all respect for elders, they don't care about authority, the language that comes out of their mouths and the way I hear half them talking in the streets (loudly) about who shagged who last Saturday after 15 pints of snakebite or whatever... it's truly scary.
And yes, I would say the majority of those are the ones who wouldn't benefit from not getting the vaccine and perhaps SHOULD get it. Pretty much because the majority of those would be brought up on a diet full of junk food, crisps, mcdonalds and coke (ADHD children, anyone?) all of which only serves to deaden the immune system, and who likely won't have access to any alternative means and little idea of how to prevent illness in other ways, or know to avoid crowded/public places should an outbreak occur!
I'm very firm that if you aren't going to vaccinate your children you need to instead feed them food and give supplements that will bolster their own immune systems properly, give them enough sleep, teach them good hygiene, and make sure they know that if there is an outbreak of something they have to avoid public places and/or 'tell Mummy' about it. If you aren't going to do that then there's no point in avoiding it in the first place.
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sartresue
Radical Aspergian
Joined: Dec 19, 2007
Posts: 2003
Location: The Castle of Shock and Awe-tism
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| LeKiwi wrote: | I'd definitely agree with that statement - it makes me so sad seeing these 'chav babies' too, because for 99% of them you can just see their whole life mapped out in front of them by the time they're barely six months old, and it isn't their fault at all. But then I see the current generation of teens - bear in mind I'm not too much older than half the ones I'm talking about, I'm only 21! - and it's just scary. So many of them just seem to have lost all respect for elders, they don't care about authority, the language that comes out of their mouths and the way I hear half them talking in the streets (loudly) about who shagged who last Saturday after 15 pints of snakebite or whatever... it's truly scary.
And yes, I would say the majority of those are the ones who wouldn't benefit from not getting the vaccine and perhaps SHOULD get it. Pretty much because the majority of those would be brought up on a diet full of junk food, crisps, mcdonalds and coke (ADHD children, anyone?) all of which only serves to deaden the immune system, and who likely won't have access to any alternative means and little idea of how to prevent illness in other ways, or know to avoid crowded/public places should an outbreak occur!
I'm very firm that if you aren't going to vaccinate your children you need to instead feed them food and give supplements that will bolster their own immune systems properly, give them enough sleep, teach them good hygiene, and make sure they know that if there is an outbreak of something they have to avoid public places and/or 'tell Mummy' about it. If you aren't going to do that then there's no point in avoiding it in the first place. |
The Max on Vax topic
I decided to revist this forum and I was dismayed to find legitimate criticism on vaccinations had degenerated into something called "chav" baiting. It would seem as though now the argument is that vaccinations are for those whose diets resemble those of cartoon characters like the Simpsons and South Park. 
I understand your disdain for vaccinations, lekiwi, because of certain additives in them that may be detrimental to health. I understand your choice not to participate in programmes offerred by the government to prevent diseases by innoculation. In a democracy we should be informed about what we are getting. In Canada the information is there. In a democracy, no one forces you to do that which is against what you believe. Of course, there are repercussions, none of which, as far as I am aware, involve punitive measures. I for one am glad of the choice. I can choose or not, as an adult, to vaccinate myelf (or my children). If I contract the disease, I can be sure of reasonably prompt treatment.
In Canada, isolated communities may forego vaccinations, and some are optional, such as for pneumonia and for the virus that can lead to cervical cancer. Not everyone wants the flu shot. My husband, who has never had the vaccine, has never had the respiratory flu that I have a weakness for. Lucky him. As I have mentioned here in an earlier post, I have been getting the vaccine since 1994. For me it works.
There are already alternative flu remedies in Canada. They very well may work, but they are not acceptable for seniors, many of whom die in flu outbreaks in nursing homes. Should seniors be in nursing homes? That is a whole different argument. The point I am making is that elder citizens in such homes are more prone to disease because of preexisting medical conditions. They need to be vaccinated unless they have an allergy to some of the ingredients in the flu vaccine. They are often in single rooms and visitation is restricted, especially during flu season.
New Zealand, as far as I can tell, is a small isolated set of two islands with a population of about 4.5 million. Canada has a poulation of 33 million and our nearest neighbour, the US, has a popuation at least nine times as large. It may be easier in your country to avoid vaccinations, but in our part of the world there is a grave risk. As I stated in an earlier post, if your solutions work for you, great. Different circumstances call for different preventive measures. 
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LeKiwi
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, just to clarify I'm a New Zealander but I live in the UK now, which has a population of 60 million and very close transt links to Europe. Hence the complaining about chavs - it's very much a UK thing, unfortunately for them, and as much as I hate to beat up on a particular group of people and make generalisations it's extremely hard not to and they make every effort to ensure their bad reputation stays that way. It's past being politically correct and not tarring everyone by the same brush - it's become a bit of a national crisis as such and extremely hard not to talk about because it's just how it is. You can't really comprehend it until you live here and deal with it on a daily basis - I thought, until I came here, that it can't have been that bad, and that people were being really harsh and insulting an entire group of people based on the behaviour of a few and found it really awful, but unfortunately I've found it to be 100% correct.
So what I was saying, about them being uneducated, living off benefits and crime, eating crap food and with not much clue about how to look after themselves is unfortunately true for a good 98% of them. 
(And just to point out too, there's a difference between the traditional 'lower class' and chavs... foreign media don't really pick up on that and misreport it).
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Macbeth
Thane of Bar and Cellar
Joined: May 28, 2007
Posts: 1279
Location: UK Doncaster
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| LeKiwi wrote: | Sorry, just to clarify I'm a New Zealander but I live in the UK now, which has a population of 60 million and very close transt links to Europe. Hence the complaining about chavs - it's very much a UK thing, unfortunately for them, and as much as I hate to beat up on a particular group of people and make generalisations it's extremely hard not to and they make every effort to ensure their bad reputation stays that way. It's past being politically correct and not tarring everyone by the same brush - it's become a bit of a national crisis as such and extremely hard not to talk about because it's just how it is. You can't really comprehend it until you live here and deal with it on a daily basis - I thought, until I came here, that it can't have been that bad, and that people were being really harsh and insulting an entire group of people based on the behaviour of a few and found it really awful, but unfortunately I've found it to be 100% correct.
So what I was saying, about them being uneducated, living off benefits and crime, eating crap food and with not much clue about how to look after themselves is unfortunately true for a good 98% of them.
(And just to point out too, there's a difference between the traditional 'lower class' and chavs... foreign media don't really pick up on that and misreport it). |
There is indeed a great discrepancy between "chavs" as reported by foreign media, and the group residents of the UK are referring to. The term "chav baiting" implies that there is some sub-group being picked on unfairly. This is categorically NOT the case. This is a case of the greater part of a whole generation blowing their lives away on Trisha and Jeremy Kyle. "Chav" in street usage here describes a group like an unholy combination of redneck, trailer trash, jock and mongrel wannabe "gangsta". The also get called other names regionally.. the only one of which I recall atm is "ned" (scottish usage i think.)
The point remains the same.. "chavs" will be one of the groups this idea targets. Or rather their misbegotten progeny, as if they werent already doomed enough to start with...
This "exclusion" tactic comes upon the recent (and contradictory) cunning plan by our government to legislate that any school excluding a child for bad behaviour MUST take a child from another school who has been excluded for bad behaviour....  . Its no coincidence that our education minister is called BALLS.
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"Mindset of an aristocrat, budget of a tramp" ZGM
"I dont have to know I'm your first if I already know I'm the best" ZGM
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LeKiwi
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Location: The murky waters of my mind...
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: |
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Didn't pick up on that... useless government really.
As an example, last night I was walking home and had a mouthy chav start making scary leery advances on me as I walked past a bus stop, while swigging from a large can of Strongbow (cider - also noted the five cans at his feet) and being egged on by his fellow chav mates. Awful. I won't repeat the language they used but it wasn't a nice experience...
The only regional one I know is the 'ned' of Scotland as well (which apparently stands for non-educated delinquent!).
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0_equals_true
Quack!
Joined: Apr 06, 2007
Age: 26
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Location: London
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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the need to vaccinate is very much specific to the disease in question.
Letting your children play with infected children is irresponsible. Something like measles could well kill them them. |
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0_equals_true
Quack!
Joined: Apr 06, 2007
Age: 26
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Location: London
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| scally is a Liverpudlian/Manchurian version of chav |
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