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Tormod
Raven
Joined: Apr 07, 2008
Posts: 124
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 Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:39 am Post subject: |
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People usually don't understand how I can think differently from them. But they have Theory of Mind. It's just that their theory is that I think the same way they think. I don't have the Theory. I have Theory of Mind too. I have theories about everything. But I'm aware that they are just theories and that I really have no way of knowing what others are thinking or feeling unless they tell me.
I must say I very much prefer my own ToM. |
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Sand
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1529
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| My experience is that we each model the world a bit differently. When I get to know someone I construct a model of that person in my head from my interaction with the person and thereafter modify the model as I get to understand that person's reactions better. But when that person dies it is necessary to eliminate the model so in effect the pain of grief is the actual killing of the dynamic model in my head and replacing it with a static one. Although I do not deny the reality of the world outside much of my interaction with it is through the models in my head. |
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marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Age: 28
Posts: 1403
Location: North West United States
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| paolo wrote: | | Absolutely. Even trees are in some measure sentient. Every living being (cells also) which reacts to its environment is somehow "sentient". Of course there are quantitative and qualitative differences of great magnitude. And there are great differences also in humans, between genders and between individuals. We still have to deal nontheless with this nonsense that animals are devoid of emotions or minds. |
I agree that assuming animals lack minds / souls is just a self-serving anthropocentric rationalization. I see no justification at all. It’s just pure assertion / assumption on behalf of human society.
In theory I could even extend the possibility of sentience to non-living systems as well. From an outside, scientific viewpoint there doesn't seem to be a real firm dividing line even between living and non-living. A numerical AI program on a computer could even be considered sentient in some way. There’s just no way to know without making a blind assertion. |
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paolo
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 1047
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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The cat, to catch, the ball on the table must do trig calculations, and he does them. Not consciously of course, he never studied trig at school. But his mind, in some part (module, genetically provided piece of his brain) is equipped with such calculating faculties. This is what theory of mind is about.
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Felinity
Pileated woodpecker
Joined: Mar 03, 2008
Posts: 176
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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I was thinking that "Theory of Mind" was either when you:
1. Visualize someone else doing exactly the same thing you are doing, maybe even in an arial view... imagine looking down on them doing exactly what you are doing and asking yourself the question "What do I think of this person"? as a way to self-evaluate? OR....
2. maybe, it means trying to put yourself in another's shoes and in their life circumstances and try to project how you would feel if the same thing (s) was happening to you?
I think it might be choice #2 the more I think about it... I think Theory of Mind os putting yourself in another's shoes.. I'm going to read all the posts on this thread now and see if someone else said that.. |
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cosmiccat
Supporting Member
Joined: Apr 06, 2007
Posts: 1709
Location: In my body on my 66th trip around the sun
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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Quoting Rainstorm5:
| Quote: | - Why am I ME?
- Why am I looking out at the world through my particular eyes and not someone else's?
- Is everyone else aware of the same?
- What makes me ME?
I never could articulate these questions, but theory of mind comes pretty close. I never once thought I was looking at the world as if it were a snowglobe (or as a main character in some kind of personal movie), but even so, how did I become ME? Why am I n this particular body and not a fish or a tree or something else? Then this all spirals down into the unavoidable question: When I die, do I go on? Do I (my consciousness) then become someone else? Or do I just simply shut off like a candle snuffed in a dark room, staring at the blackness of eternity? I remember I once brought up this same topic in another NT forum and everyone summarily wrote me off as being self-centered. Guess I'd better stop now while I'm ahead. These questions bother me in the middle of the night when I'm laying there, staring at the ceiling. They usually herald an oncoming tsunami of depression. |
These are perfectly legitimate questions and I think most intelligent people would speculate on the answers to them. Certainly philosophers have asked these same questions and built whole philosophies around them. If you didn't ask yourself such questions you would be a rather dull and robotic individual. Inquiring Minds Want to Know. 
I, on the other hand, have often speculated on what it would be like if I were the only one who existed and everything else was a creation of my own mind. The operative word being "speculated" and not "believed". As long as such thinking remains speculative , I see no harm in it. Examining the nature of reality, our own and others is a form of higher consciousness and creativity. It would be a pretty dreary world without it.
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I accept chaos. I am not sure whether it accepts me. Some people are terrified of the bomb. But then some people are terrified to be seen carrying a modern screen magazine. Experience teaches us that silence terrifies people the most. Bob Dylan |
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Feral-sapien
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Jan 22, 2008
Posts: 58
Location: Southeast U.S.
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Zonder wrote: | Essentially, my mind is different than your mind and we might think differently.
If you don't have a "theory of mind" you tend to believe that people think just like you, and are mystified when they don't.
Z |
I tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt when it comes to attained knowledge..This has caused me more grief than just assuming them to be ignorant has.
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Do you remember how electrical currents and 'unseen waves' were laughed at? The knowledge about man is still in its infancy. —Albert Einstein
"The most potent weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed."
-- Steve Biko |
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Rainstorm5
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 881
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Brittany2907 wrote: | | Nico wrote: | | Theory of mind is the ability to see the world through the eyes of someone else and to understand that people have beliefs different from our own. |
If people on the autistic spectrum are supposed to lack theory of mind, then I must not have AS because I know that others have different beliefs from my own.  |
There's a little more to it than that. Here's a good article I found on the subject (ASDs & theory of mind), which explains the problems involved with autistic children developing theory of mind. Eventually they can and do develop a sense of theory of mind as they mature, but even then it's not as advanced as that of the average neurotypical child.
Link: http://www.iidc.indiana.edu/irca/education/TheoryofMind.html
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Jillian AKA Rainstorm5
Terminal Outsider, rogue graphic designer & lunatic fringe. |
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qaliqo
Pileated woodpecker
Joined: Apr 01, 2008
Posts: 181
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: No, but it sure feels that way! |
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| Mw99 wrote: | | and what if you are the only sentient being on the planet and everyone else is a product of your own imagination, or what if they are all souless drones that operate like robots, and what if you are just one of those robots... |
Descartes' Meditations on First Philosophy. The answer is to duck the question and just "feel" that God is no deceiver, that everything real is in fact real and not an illusion. On theory of mind, over the years it has become apparent to me that NTs do not distinguish what they feel from who they are. I'm not sure that is why NTs have theory of mind, or why Aspies do not, but that oneness of identity with emotion is alien to me. Feeling sad or happy or angry or embarassed is like feeling hot or cold or hungry or tired, it is something that will pass as circumstances; NTs have told me that when they think of making another person angry, they think of themselves being an angry person, not a person who is angry as a result of a stimulus. I think that is the theory of mind I am lacking, if that makes any sense. |
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Rainstorm5
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 881
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| cosmiccat wrote: |
These are perfectly legitimate questions and I think most intelligent people would speculate on the answers to them. Certainly philosophers have asked these same questions and built whole philosophies around them. If you didn't ask yourself such questions you would be a rather dull and robotic individual. Inquiring Minds Want to Know. |
I don't like to think of myself as dull and robotic, but I suppose it depends on who you ask... I spend a lot of time inside my own mind, though, so that might mean I'm not much fun to be around in real life.
| Quote: |
I, on the other hand, have often speculated on what it would be like if I were the only one who existed and everything else was a creation of my own mind. The operative word being "speculated" and not "believed". As long as such thinking remains speculative , I see no harm in it. Examining the nature of reality, our own and others is a form of higher consciousness and creativity. It would be a pretty dreary world without it. |
I've entertained similar thoughts from time to time as well, but they are usually dismissed quickly. My parents were both in the mental health industry (in one form or another) so I always saw thoughts of this nature as aberrant. Why? Because my mom said so. I don't see anything wrong with thinking such things, as long as it doesn't dissociate someone from reality completely.
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Jillian AKA Rainstorm5
Terminal Outsider, rogue graphic designer & lunatic fringe. |
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