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silkboy
Butterfly
Joined: May 03, 2008
Age: 34
Posts: 12
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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 Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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sinagua confuses a sense of wrong with empathy. People with AS tend to have an incredibly active sense of determining what is wrong. That is one of the cornerstones of their lives. Which is also the reason why I read that statement and feel a compulsion to correct it. I notice things that are wrong everywhere. And we hate what is wrong. It is the core of one of our strongest emotions. Many times our "empathy" mistakenly believes that those around us should be as disturbed as we are by that which is wrong.
By definition those with AS do have a limited or non-existant natural sense of empathy for those around us. Either we project our own responses onto others (which tends to not be very accurate) or else we have rationalized and come to understand "rules" of what things probably mean. So we can do things such as pick up on cues from others, not because we do it instinctively, but because we have developed habits to apply the rules we have learned. Functionally it is probably wrong to say that those with AS have no empathy, as we are able to exhibit it. It just is not natural for us, it is deduced. |
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SotiCoto
Velociraptor
Joined: May 14, 2008
Posts: 474
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| silkboy wrote: | | sinagua confuses a sense of wrong with empathy. People with AS tend to have an incredibly active sense of determining what is wrong. That is one of the cornerstones of their lives. Which is also the reason why I read that statement and feel a compulsion to correct it. I notice things that are wrong everywhere. And we hate what is wrong. It is the core of one of our strongest emotions. Many times our "empathy" mistakenly believes that those around us should be as disturbed as we are by that which is wrong. |
Problematic when one considers that... statistically speaking.... EVERYTHING we presume to know is most likely wrong.
"Wrongness" is the fundamentally default state of our perceptions.... and even were something not so, we have no reliable means of knowing, enough that it would be more practical to assume there is no "Right"; merely "Wrong" and "More Wrong". |
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tharn
Toucan
Joined: Apr 22, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 255
Location: Iowa
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| sinagua wrote: | | ...if anything, I feel like I'm MORE empathetic than most people I know, even though I generally prefer to spend most of my time alone. |
I feel absolutely overwhelmed around people who are in an emotional state; it doesn't make sense to me that I could be lacking in empathy. If anything, I have too much of it. Of course, instead of sitting around and chit-chatting about these emotions, I get so overwhelmed that hey- maybe I want to shut down a bit, and solve the problem, so that it'll all go away! Perhaps many of us prefer to avoid people because our empathy makes us so vulnerable to others' emotions?
Likewise, I wouldn't suggest people who avoid loud noises are deaf; they're probably just painfully sensitive to loud noises. That's how I am with dramatic displays of emotion. |
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tharn
Toucan
Joined: Apr 22, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 255
Location: Iowa
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| silkboy wrote: | | ...By definition those with AS do have a limited or non-existant natural sense of empathy for those around us. ... It just is not natural for us, it is deduced. |
I won't object to someone relating their own subjective experiences; it may be that this is how you experience (or do not experience) empathy. And I can't argue with that.
But if you are insinuating that people with AS must lack empathy because that is the definition of AS... I have to protest. The definition of AS, in particular with regard to empathy, is precisely what's being questioned here, so you cannot logically appeal to the definition. Moreover, we are not defined by the criteria. The criteria form a description of us that is used for the convenience of making an accurate diagnosis. In this case, I don't think the criteria are quite accurate. |
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zen_mistress
In Pursuit of a Peaceful Life
Joined: Jun 12, 2007
Age: 31
Posts: 1132
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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I remember getting 35/80 when I took that empathy test last time... I dont know what I would have got though before reading Dale Carnegie, which enabled me to learn a lot. I also got 36/80 for systemising.. so it was a weird result to get. My result put me somewhere between aspie and NT - not particularly empathetic but not particularly good at systemising either.
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krex
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Age: 45
Posts: 5012
Location: Village of the Damned
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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tharn...I have wondered the same thing myself. If perhaps (some) of us are so hypersensitive to desplays of destress that we become over whelmed. Perhaps it is like other sensitivities...some of us are hper and others are hypo? I think someone who is hyper can look hypo when they have to escape the over stimulation and those who are hypo may appear empathetic because they can just sit there with the person because they feel so detached from it?
I don't kow, just throwing out some theories based solely on my own experiences. I know when I am working with the disabled or the dogs and I can feel their confussion,discomfort,pain...it actually hurts me. It hurts me so much that I wont the hurt to stop and that is why I try and find a "solution"..I want to stop hurting. The times I have gooten in trouble at work it has always been by breaking rules because I could not stand the pain I saw in those I was taking care of....(like sneaking extra food to the dogs because all the other dogs were eating and I thought they felt left out...or feeling guilty when I was taking another dog for playtime that the dog #2 didn't understand why dog #1 got attention and they didn't ...so I would come back and give them attention)
I used to do the same things when I worked with teenagers and they couldn't sleep...I was supposed to punish them for not turning out their lights but I would let them read in bed until they got tired. It wasn't that I was trying to be "nice" it was just that I had experienced similiar situations and "felt" the pain and wanted them not to feel it because it made me feel it again.....
Does that make sense?
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Spokane_Girl
I would walk 500 miles and I would walk 500 more
Joined: Jul 17, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 4225
Location: Benny & Joon town (I wish)
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| anja wrote: | | I thought the "lack of empathy" referred to how aspies have difficulties reading body language and facial expressions. For exemple many aspies can talk at lenght about their special interest and not notice if the other person is interested or bored, or have difficulties knowing when it's their turn to speak during a conversation. |
I always thought lack of empathy meant not caring about others. But it seemed that way to other people because we don't know how to react to respond to people so they assume we don't care, plus the fact we don't pick up on their non verbal cues. |
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Spokane_Girl
I would walk 500 miles and I would walk 500 more
Joined: Jul 17, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 4225
Location: Benny & Joon town (I wish)
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| tharn wrote: | | silkboy wrote: | | ...By definition those with AS do have a limited or non-existant natural sense of empathy for those around us. ... It just is not natural for us, it is deduced. |
I won't object to someone relating their own subjective experiences; it may be that this is how you experience (or do not experience) empathy. And I can't argue with that.
But if you are insinuating that people with AS must lack empathy because that is the definition of AS... I have to protest. The definition of AS, in particular with regard to empathy, is precisely what's being questioned here, so you cannot logically appeal to the definition. Moreover, we are not defined by the criteria. The criteria form a description of us that is used for the convenience of making an accurate diagnosis. In this case, I don't think the criteria are quite accurate. |
I think the criteria is bull. Anyone could meet it. Look at Cruella, she meets it even though she isn't real. |
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PlainBlueSky
Emu Egg
Joined: May 14, 2008
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| ThatRedHairedGrrl wrote: | Great question!
Now, this isn't something I have trouble with. But I do often have trouble knowing how to respond.
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I think that nails it -- and, it does seem like there's an instinct, just a different one. Being left alone, or sitting silently with someone might be what I'd want, but not what most NT's would want for the same feeling/situation. One way is "right" only because of numbers. |
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Rainstorm5
Tornado Aficionado
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 1103
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:42 pm Post subject: Re: Do aspie's have Emapthy or not? |
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| kid020 wrote: | | I am NT and have two Aspie friends. My one Aspie friend goes against what I have heard was typical about Asperger's because he talks about his feelings constantly. |
I have AS and talk about my feelings all the time too - mainly because I'm lousy at showing them.
| Quote: | | When I told him I was having a hard time making friends in college he said, "Yea it's not fair." and as he was too explained what he thought about it. When I told him how controlling my mom was he tried to give advice. |
Well, he probably thought you were legitimately asking for his opinion. Unfortunately, this sort of question is like the one where the wife asks her husband if she looks fat in a certain dress. If he's NT, he'll offer a quick "No, you look great." If he's an Aspie, he'll say, "Yes, that dress does make you look overweight. You should wear a different one." Aspies have a hard time sorting out when an NT is just 'venting' and when they're actually requesting feedback.
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Although when I lost my student ID and told hm, when I was finally relived when I found it and told him that he had no response or reaction. My other Aspie friend when I was down about something asked me what's wrong when I looked upset, and I told him and he said, "I can relate to that." So this is very confusing, what does everyone think? |
Aspies are also tripped up by this kind of situation as well. In my case, if someone tells me, "Guess what? I found that ID card I lost!" I'd probably just look at them and say the automatic filler response, "that's good." An NT might respond with, "Hey, that's great! You can get into the library now!"or, "Good thing no one else found it first!" You are essentially stating a fact: you found your ID card. Your aspie friend mentally noted it, but wasn't sure what sort of response you wanted, so he/she said little or nothing about it. It wasn't something earth-shaking like someone just blew up a bridge or anything. Sounds sort of heartless, but again, this is the kind of thing that trips me up. When I don't react to a statement like that, I'm sometimes told, "You don't care. Okay then." I'm immediately forced into the situation of having to explain myself.
You must have looked REALLY upset for your other Aspie friend to notice. Most times I totally miss it when someone's upset, unless they're red in the face or tears are falling. I usually don't catch onto mild anger or other shades of emotion until a person says something snippy to me. I can read tone of voice when it's filled with anger or sadness, but more often than not, I miss the small stuff. Again, I come off as if I don't care. I have empathy and sympathy for people, I'm just really bad at knowing how and when to show it.
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SotiCoto
Velociraptor
Joined: May 14, 2008
Posts: 474
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:49 am Post subject: |
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"Your Empathy Quotient (EQ) is 3 out of 80"
I win. 
I'm betting most mundies couldn't get a score that good if they were actively trying for it, and I was just being honest.
Then again... I'm doubting the validity of this test.
Afterall, proficiency in any one of the many given situations presented is a purely subjective matter.... and if someone else was attempting to judge on my behalf I am relatively certain that they would score me differently (statistically speaking, probably higher). I'm not saying that their judgement of me would be more valid than my own (most likely less), but neither is my own judgement impartial... thus the results are inaccurate.
I've taken better EQ tests before that didn't give me such ideal results... but appeared to ask more objectively viable questions.
p.s. "Your Autism Quotient (AQ) is 69 out of 100"
Amusing. |
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Sora
Love all, trust a few
Joined: Sep 16, 2006
Age: 20
Posts: 2900
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Well, did people consider that this is individual?
I suppose I have no empathy. Or maybe I have tons of it but lack the emotions accompanying the recognition. Who knows?
I don't doubt that this is true that others on the spectrum have many different levels of empathy.
And I've spoken to a person with AS that had a certain sense of basic empathy himself.
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demoluca
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 17, 2007
Posts: 590
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: |
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I have every symptom except for empathy problems.
I think that you have to know similar feelings for the same situation to do it properly, though.
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Last edited by demoluca on Thu May 15, 2008 9:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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darkstone100
A dedicated Escapist.
Joined: Mar 05, 2008
Age: 19
Posts: 4025
Location: Yuma, AZ
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| I have empathy, I just don't know when to show it. |
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sonny1471
Sea Gull
Joined: Sep 20, 2007
Age: 37
Posts: 243
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| I scored an 11 so pretty much no empathy. I've been told over and over that I'm "cold" in emotional situations. Like a lot of others on this thread, I understand what a logical response should be, but that doesn't mean I'm feeling that way. Yes, I see how someone whose house has burned down would be sad, but that doesn't make me feel sad or feel badly for that person. That's the distinction for me. |
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