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Featherways
Snowy Owl
Joined: Nov 06, 2005
Posts: 128
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 Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 3:35 am Post subject: |
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| tharn wrote: | | Featherways wrote: | | FQ 50, SQ-R 118, EQ 10, AQ 42 |
OMG awesome! It looks like roleplaying stats  |
Lol, now there's an idea... |
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Ahaseurus2000
Velociraptor
Joined: Sep 22, 2007
Age: 30
Posts: 460
Location: Taupo, New Zealand
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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In a study of several Auties in controlled conditions, these Auties showed signs of discomfort when they observed another person who was clearly in physical pain. If these Auties have no empathy whatsoever, why did they show discomfort and not indifference? It was concluded that there is such a thing as Pain-Empathy, the ability to unconsciously recognize another's physical pain and respond empathetically.
So Auties may at least be capable of Pain-Empathy, even if not naturally / originally capable of Emotional Empathy.
I would not be suprised if Aspies can "feel" Pain-Empathy (I certainly can), and can "learn" to feel Emotional Empathy. Perhaps with maturity and experience, an Aspie with Mild / High-Functioning AS can (semi)naturally begin to feel Emotional Empathy (i.e. delayed development).
NB: Keep in mind Empathy is tied to Theory Of Mind (you need to recognize another's psychological state before you can respond with empathy) and one's own Emotional Awareness. Also Mental illness and Neuroticism (including Anxiety and Depression) can reduce the capacity for feeling / expressing Empathy.
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EvilKimEvil
zoo-music girl
Joined: Sep 27, 2007
Posts: 3040
Location: highway to hell
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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I experience empathy internally, but I'm not always good at expressing it, especially not in the normal way. My parents had to actually explain to me that you are supposed to express empathy and that there is a procedure for doing so. Otherwise, I would have mostly kept it to myself.
I can write about empathy, but expressing it is often really awkward, and it usually comes out sounding fake.
Anyway, I think the idea that aspies lack empathy comes from our difficulty with expressing it. Most of these descriptions are based on how we appear to others, not our actual experiences. |
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kleodimus
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 09, 2008
Age: 16
Posts: 670
Location: eternal darkness
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:27 am Post subject: Re: Do aspie's have Emapthy or not? |
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| kid020 wrote: | | I am NT and have two Aspie friends. My one Aspie friend goes against what I have heard was typical about Asperger's because he talks about his feelings constantly. When I told him I was having a hard time making friends in college he said, "Yea it's not fair." and as he was too explained what he thought about it. When I told him how controlling my mom was he tried to give advice. Although when I lost my student ID and told hm, when I was finally relived when I found it and told him that he had no response or reaction. My other Aspie friend when I was down about something asked me what's wrong when I looked upset, and I told him and he said, "I can relate to that." So this is very confusing, what does everyone think? |
no two aspies is the same mate |
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krex
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Age: 45
Posts: 5012
Location: Village of the Damned
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| Ahaseurus2000 wrote: | In a study of several Auties in controlled conditions, these Auties showed signs of discomfort when they observed another person who was clearly in physical pain. If these Auties have no empathy whatsoever, why did they show discomfort and not indifference? It was concluded that there is such a thing as Pain-Empathy, the ability to unconsciously recognize another's physical pain and respond empathetically.
So Auties may at least be capable of Pain-Empathy, even if not naturally / originally capable of Emotional Empathy.
I would not be suprised if Aspies can "feel" Pain-Empathy (I certainly can), and can "learn" to feel Emotional Empathy. Perhaps with maturity and experience, an Aspie with Mild / High-Functioning AS can (semi)naturally begin to feel Emotional Empathy (i.e. delayed development).
NB: Keep in mind Empathy is tied to Theory Of Mind (you need to recognize another's psychological state before you can respond with empathy) and one's own Emotional Awareness. Also Mental illness and Neuroticism (including Anxiety and Depression) can reduce the capacity for feeling / expressing Empathy. |
That is really interesting to me because that is the kind of empathy I think I have..not just to physical pain though. I also feel that in the animals and others who show destress...especially in the animals I work with. I am wondering about the connection with ToM because I think the pain and destress is mine...I am feeling it and that is why I want it to stop in the other person or animal. I continue to have problems with this as a caregiver, (like giving them a shower or brushing their teeth even though I know they hate it). I don't know how parents have the strength to do this with kids, glad I chose not to have any. I also think that I gave one of the dogs to many treats because they wanted them and they got sick. If I don't get a grip on this I'm going to end up fired. 
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Confused-Fish
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 13, 2008
Age: 22
Posts: 737
Location: Bournemouth, England
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Confused-Fish wrote: | is empathy like when say your sat in a room and someone walks in not saying anything and you can tell without looking at them that their sad, like you feel the sadness but its not your own feeling, like the feelings not coming from inside you? i always thought that was what empathy was but some people are making it sound like its about putting yourself in other peoples shoes, which i always thought was called sympathy.  |
is this not empathy then? some people have told me it is, someone else from work told me that i have a "female intuition" (i have no idea what that means either )
and whats the difference between sympathy and empathy then, because some people on here are describing what i thought was sympathy.
Inquiring minds need to know   |
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Anemone
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 18, 2008
Age: 43
Posts: 829
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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43 out of 80.
I'd like to know why the authors who published this scale used this scale rather than the two previously published scales on empathy that I know about, including the one painstakingly put together by Davis and published in 1980 that I link to in my "three kinds of empathy" thread. I guess I gotta read their paper.
Other empathy thread here:
three different types of empathy |
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Woodpeace
Sea Gull
Joined: Mar 27, 2008
Posts: 217
Location: Lancashire, England
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 6:26 am Post subject: |
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The study Cognitive and Emotional Empathy and their Neurofunctional Correlates in Autism Spectrum Conditions which was presented at the International Meeting for Autism Research in London last week, distinguishes between cognitive empathy and emotional empathy.
Cognitive empathy is the ability to identify emotions in other people, to differentiate between emotions such as fear and sadness. Emotional empathy is the capacity to feel for other people.
The study found that autistics have trouble predominantly with cognitive empathy, and in tests score lower than neurotypicals in respect of cognitive empathy, but not emotional empathy. |
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Ahaseurus2000
Velociraptor
Joined: Sep 22, 2007
Age: 30
Posts: 460
Location: Taupo, New Zealand
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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The reason a parent can tell a child to do something they know the child doesn't want to do, and which the child hates, is because they do so from a position of "authority". This is from the psychological nature of the Parent-Child relationship, in which "parent" and "child" are unconscious roles assumed by the participants. This role of "parent" is one that commands obedience from the "child", and does not normally allow for the presence of empathy. And this role of "child" is one that determines wether to give in to the "parent's" desires (compliance) or the child's desires (rebellion). You can see the dynamic of this relationship at work just by watching parents shopping with children at the supermarket, to give one example. It is also at work in some other situations, including between some criminals and the police trying to catch them!
There is another role: "Adult" or "Grown-up", in which the participant acts with equality, respect and assertiveness to others and oneself, i.e. they do not take the role of "parent" around a "child" or the role of "child" around a parent, neither of which allow accomodation of (self-)respect or (self-)assertion. It is in the role of "Adult" that participants can most easily feel and express empathy. Sometimes you can see parents and children acting very much like mature grownups - they have taken the role of "adult" and are acting accordingly.
Note: Parent / Child roles are not bad or good in themselves, and are sometimes necessary. But development of the Adult role is important to the psychological (and perhaps spiritual) development of oneself into a person worthy of equality.
Also: I interpreted this material from a form of psychoanalysis called "Transactional Analysis". I understand the details given here to not allow for Neurological Differences - on other words, the roles taken by Aspies and Auties in their psychological relationships could be slightly different from those detailed here (Though I know no evidence to support this, yet).
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earthmonkey
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 06, 2005
Age: 18
Posts: 509
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 12:36 am Post subject: |
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On that empathy quiz, when I took it just now, I got 65 out of 80 (a number of the questions had to do with things like risk taking and such that don't really having to do with social stuff or empathy or perceiving others' emotions). However, when I took that quiz a few years ago before I was in the current environment, I got below 20.
I've always been pretty in tune with the emotions of others. The thing is, when you read body language differently (or, when it comes to eye expressions, if you don't make eye contact or look much at the face), then you don't get a lot of the subliminal information. I tend to get this equivalent information from tone of voice and the body language of people I've known for long enough to have a sense for it.
But I don't think empathy should be defined by this. I mean, if you had a person type, for instance, that they got picked to represent their school in a spelling bee, likely you'd think that they'd be happy about it. But without the emotional information or other background, you can't tell if they're happy they got picked or upset about having the pressure of representing the school and of performing well. You don't conclude that the person who says "congratulations" is being insensitive and unempathetic when they lack that information.
P.S. - I just took the AQ test again, and whereas I used to score highly on it, just now I scored 30 out of 100, which is much lower than when I took this quiz a few years ago (I am also pretty obviously autistic with stims, and am disabled and have difficulties with speech and daily living stuff). This despite being diagnosed by a team in elementary school and now undergoing extensive testing and appointments with autism specialists, and they're trying to reclassify me as Autistic Disorder rather than Asperger. Who'd have predicted that one? Just goes to show: can't always rely on the tests and what the "experts" say. Some offer valuable information, and even of this it should be evaluated on individual basis, but also should be skeptical of many people called autism specialists.
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"why is it bad for me to discuss why I need the lights off above my desk but it is ok for you to tell me you had a camera shoved up your a#$?" --an aspie coming out |
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GodsGadfly
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: May 22, 2008
Age: 31
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 2:59 am Post subject: |
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I'm keenly aware of what other people are feeling, but I don't always know the best way to respond to it. A lot of times, it's precisely my awareness of their feelings that paralyzes me. I get overwhelmed.
In fact, that's one of the reasons it's taken me so long to realize I have Asperger's (besides knowledge of the syndrome): I tend to absorb the psychological energy of those around me. If I spend a lot of time around a bipolar person, I turn bipolar, for example.
In large groups, I'm paralyzed by all the different feelings I'm picking up on.
I try to express sympathy with people in a way that *I* think it should be expressed, but it isn't how NTs think.
So, even though, inside, I *am* feeling deeply for people, because of my external expression, they mistake it for aloofness and self-centeredness. |
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shopaholic
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Posts: 619
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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15 out of 80 - ugh!!!!!
Other people must find me really cold!
But actually I think I'm like you, Silke - analytical rather than empathetic. You explained that really well.
Last edited by shopaholic on Tue May 27, 2008 4:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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tharn
Toucan
Joined: Apr 22, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 255
Location: Iowa
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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Wait... now that I think about this more, what exactly are we measuring here?! 
Grab the average NT, who has a every reason to believe that a randomly selected person probably thinks and feels just like him (another NT). Then ask him if he feels empathy for that person. Well duh, of course he does.
Now grab an Autistic, who is used to being surrounded by people who think and feel in a way that's alien to him. Then ask him to recognize a random stranger's emotions as just like his. Gee, he probably feels that the random person is a bit alien.
When I'm around other Autistics, I don't have these alleged empathy problems. I actually feel like I'm surrounded by people who experience the world much like I do. So I recognize, appreciate, and share another autistic's emotions quite readily!
I suppose that because autistics can't easily identify with what Joe Shmoe NT is feeling, our empathy is defective? But when Joe Shmoe NT doesn't understand what an autistic is feeling... this is ALSO our fault?! Let's strand an NT on an island full of autistics and see how HIS empathy works, eh?
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Sorenna
Deinonychus
Joined: May 13, 2008
Posts: 369
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: empathy |
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edit
Last edited by Sorenna on Sat May 31, 2008 11:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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deadpanhead
Velociraptor
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Joined: May 19, 2008
Posts: 424
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Woodpeace wrote: | ....Cognitive empathy is the ability to identify emotions in other people, to differentiate between emotions such as fear and sadness. Emotional empathy is the capacity to feel for other people.
The study found that autistics have trouble predominantly with cognitive empathy, and in tests score lower than neurotypicals in respect of cognitive empathy, but not emotional empathy. |
From my own memory growing up, i know that, for me, any identification of emotions in others is the result of experience plus teaching and usually requires verbalization on the part of the sufferer, or i have to witness the actual painful (or happy) event. When my elders worked to teach me empathy (they were a wise bunch to know to do that without all the info we have here), they would take me back through my mental video tape to a time when i had similar terrible or wonderful feelings as the person who required empathy. As i've lived and suffered more hurts and pains and highs i have built up a large 'database' of empathy. If i have been through anything that brought on similar feelings, emotional or physical, i can bring it up for myself in my imagination and relate, even feel it if it was extreme enough. I still do not usually notice on my own most non-verbal queues that someone is hurt or ecstatic unless they are incredibly obvious like tears streaming or loud squealing, in fact i often mistake hurt for anger. If someone verbalizes to me that there is something going on and i learn verbally what it is, i can pull up my store of feelings and usually have a close match, but not always. Maybe by the time i'm 60 i'll have the entire set. |
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