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velodog
Gold Supporter
Joined: Mar 16, 2008
Posts: 1251
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 Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Willard wrote: | | 3) Snobbishly declining to attend all the office parties and after-hours get-togethers because they cause anxiety attacks (that are invisible to coworkers due to your lack of facial expressions as you shut down and go silent from sensory overload). |
I hate Office Parties for the reasons stated, and also because on the rare occasions when I have gone and not been drunk enough to make out with a married receptionist instead of my date, I can't resist telling the obsequious suckass types to get off of the Bosses leg when I am sober. Drunk or sober, Office Parties suck. BTW, the first incident only happened once.  |
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 6916
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Office Parties would not exist if no one enjoyed them. If you were not Aspie, velodog, do you think you'd still hate them? |
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velodog
Gold Supporter
Joined: Mar 16, 2008
Posts: 1251
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | Office Parties would not exist if no one enjoyed them. If you were not Aspie, velodog, do you think you'd still hate them? |
I didn't claim to speak for anyone else slowmutant. While many people do enjoy Office Parties there are also people not on the spectrum who go out of a sense of obligation to keep Management happy, as opposed to going because they want to. As you have noted in other posts, NTs are not so different from us in that they often feel trapped by some of the same social obligations that can bother people on the spectrum. |
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Anemone
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 18, 2008
Age: 43
Posts: 660
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| ouinon wrote: | How much does a group of men working together talk? How much does a group of women working together talk? And how much does a group of men and women talk?
I agree re, technology to an extent; computers now do a lot of the sustained detailed clerical solitary acountancy style jobs that AS excelled at, but I do think the entry of women into the workplace may have radically transformed the style of "relationships" there.
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Stop blaming women, Ouinon. If women make such a difference, then why do they earn so much less than men? In general, women are easier to work for because they are more inclusive and better managers. They take care of their employees better, on average, which is what disadvantaged groups usually need (among other things).
I think it would make more sense to blame the loss of loyalty employers feel for their employees. It used to be that you could stay with the same company for life, but now if you do you are seen as someone who hasn't got what it takes to hustle something better. Employers don't look after their employees as much as they used to. People are left to fend for themselves more, which takes more skill than many people have. And also, of course, things are much faster paced than they used to be, and it's harder for people to keep up. Increasing social demands are just one way of making the workplace more cliquey, which is maybe what people do when they feel more insecure. |
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EvilKimEvil
zoo-music girl
Joined: Sep 27, 2007
Posts: 3040
Location: highway to hell
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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Long before I knew about AS, I became aware that I was not as adept at NVC as most of my peers. So I made a concerted effort to learn as much about it as possible. I read about it and observed carefully. This made a big difference in my ability to understand other people's NVC. I also learned to communicate nonverbally, at least in a basic way. And I continue to work at improving my NVC skills.
Unfortunately, I have found that the more subtle aspects of my NVC are beyond my control. No matter what, I always look stiff, uncomfortable, "stand-off-ish". Even when I am feeling completely at ease. I've tried a lot of different things to change this (stretching, breathing exercises, and other relaxation techniques), but it seems to truly be beyond my control. Similarly, when I am content, my face appears sad. I cannot control this either.
So it seems that no matter how much effort I put into improving my NVC skills, I will always have to choose between being perceived as "stand-off-ish", "mopey", "wishy-washy", etc. and explaining that I have AS and then being associated with all the assumptions, stereotypes, and misinformation that go with that label. I have yet to determine which of these two options is more advantageous in the long-run. |
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EvilKimEvil
zoo-music girl
Joined: Sep 27, 2007
Posts: 3040
Location: highway to hell
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| ouinon wrote: | | How much does a group of men working together talk? How much does a group of women working together talk? And how much does a group of men and women talk? |
Recent research indicates that men talk just as much as women:
http://www.livescience.com/health/070705_chatty_men.html
| Quote: | Toss out the stereotype that women blab more than men. Women and men both speak about 16,000 words a day, according to a new study.
For more than a decade, researchers have asserted that women speak much more than men do, with one neuropsychiatrist reporting in a book ("The Female Brain") that women use 20,000 words per day compared to only 7,000 for men.
The author of the book, Louann Brizendine of the University of California, San Francisco, said she later found out those numbers were based on an “unreliable” study. |
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 6916
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 12:48 am Post subject: |
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Some women tend to babble, using a great many words to express a relative few ideas. They'll go and on about nothing worth listening to. Some men do this as well. Others, like myself, usually don't say much, but when they really open up, they can ramble as well. It's about different communicating styles. It's about style versus substance versus method of delivery.
Knowing when to shut up is a virtue many Aspies lack. |
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 57
Posts: 7598
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: |
Knowing when to shut up is a virtue many Aspies lack. |
from the mouths of babes come truth
Merle |
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ouinon
chemical reaction
Joined: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 3148
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:24 am Post subject: |
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EvilKimEvil, thank you for data and link.
Your post reminded me that I had already come across this research. However there is nothing in the study to show what conversation rates are in mixed environments as opposed to single sex environments, as far as I can see.
What if mixed-sex environments increase the volume of complex, verbal and non-verbal, communication going on?
| ouinon wrote: | Communication, ( obviously non-verbal  ), in the animal kingdom is mostly and most significantly about mating behaviour, and between rival males over territory and females. |
What if workplaces becoming mixed-sex transformed them into "mating areas", with twice as much, or twice as complicated, non-verbal communication as a result?
What if mixed workplaces are actually "distracting", time-wasting, increasingly challenging environments for AS because some at least of the activity, specifically the communication, is sex related? Studies have already shown that mixed-sex schools impact negatively on girls academic progress. What if mixed-sex work places were bad/disadvantageous for AS? 
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"Life is pain; anyone who says different is selling something" |
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ouinon
chemical reaction
Joined: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 3148
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: |
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I'm wondering whether the movement towards mixed-sex environments of the last 100 years has been a major factor in making life harder for AS.
There is so much "more" non-verbal communication to "do" and understand" in mixed sex environments. There is much much more ( agenda, subplots, signalling etc) "going on" between people.
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"Life is pain; anyone who says different is selling something" |
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SotiCoto
Velociraptor
Joined: May 14, 2008
Posts: 474
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | Social intelligence, emotional IQ, these things can make or break a job applicant. You could have all the technical knowlewledge in the world, but if you can't be a team-player .... a lot of doors close. |
As I said: The ability to fake it once in a while.
In and of itself, not necessarily an easy thing to do... but useful under the right circumstances. I had to play at normal for the interview to get my job, but I haven't even come close to playing that part since then. Made me bloody uncomfortable too.
| velodog wrote: |
A lot of employers care if their employees can get along with others. A lot of Aspies/HFA types do not have such specialized skills. |
As long as nobody is hindering anyone else's ability to work, it doesn't matter... I've found.
And yes, some people can be hindered in their working by trivial and stupid things... and I avoid those where possible.... but otherwise, I don't feel particularly compelled to go to every leaving party arranged for the employees of this place, and I don't go to the christmas party / dinner / whatever either. I don't interact with any of them outside a working environment, and WITHIN the working environment they are quite used to my quirks. |
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Willard
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 24, 2008
Posts: 584
Location: Confederate States of America
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| velodog wrote: |
I hate Office Parties for the reasons stated, and also because on the rare occasions when I have gone and not been drunk enough to make out with a married receptionist instead of my date, I can't resist telling the obsequious suckass types to get off of the Bosses leg when I am sober. Drunk or sober, Office Parties suck. BTW, the first incident only happened once. |
 LOL (literally). Spent the first part of a drunken Office Christmas party stripping down the boss' mistress in front of the staff and helping her Xerox her boobs (had an autographed copy hanging on my living room wall for years.
Unfortunately, at the time, I had no idea she was the boss' mistress. Ah, Cold Ethyl, you guileful minx.
Liquor? I don't even like her.
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"I don't mean to sound bitter, cynical or cruel - but I am, so that's how it comes out."
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ProfessorX
Deinonychus
Joined: Feb 09, 2007
Posts: 327
Location: Somewhere near,Somewhere far
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm...  In my own lifetime and experiences I've often found it very difficult to function in a nonverbal setting as, there is a great amount of difficult for myself that is.I'm not sure how others in the Autistic spectrum do yet, in my own words I'm terrible at such for, the mere fact, reading body lanquage and other such notions has never came easy for me despite trying constantly over and over.Still, I'm not giving up on this altogether merely pointing out that nonverbal communication is an area where I tend to struggle.
ProfessorX
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It is a good viewpoint to see the world as a dream. When you have something like a nightmare, you will wake up and tell yourself that it was only a dream. It is said that the world we live in is not a bit different from this. |
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krex
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Age: 44
Posts: 4973
Location: Village of the Damned
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| velodog wrote: | | Thanks for the link Krex, I have tried understanding body language back in the 1970s, maybe now I will have a better degree of self awareness to work with the information than I did at 15 and 16 years old. I am 4 years older than you so I have dealt with the problems you mention of unemployment and under employment relating to being on the high end of the spectrum before we were recognized as such. I am fortunate to have landed a job that makes most of my deficits much less of a problem than they have been in the past. I hope you can find employment more suited to maximize your earnings because I have been where you are at. I was 38 when I found my current job and I managed to get in at the right time, obviously such opportunities don't always pop up for our convenience. Working at a lower end of the job market than you are actually capable of is frustrating and bad on the nerves balancing the monthly budget. |
Thanks for the understanding Velodog. I originally went through with my DX because I naively thought that someone who be able to help me find my strengths and weaknesses and give me more insight to best jobs for me then I seemed to be able to figure out myself. I really like working and think it is part of my sense of worth. Not true for everyone, which is fine, but it is how I was raised. I believe I have something to contribute and am just lost as to the steps to get there, unfortunately, in the US, there are no such service. I believe we are very short sited country in regards to human productivity or health. Put a cheap patch on it and continue to do so for the next 40 years rather then invest some min capital into resolving the problem so that the individual can be more productive for the next 40 years...sad.
I have some learning difficulties that make functioning challenging but I know I have a mind and a desire to be productive. I just need to right guidance and information. It seems that the current focus on education for AS individuals is social skills. I wonder if that includes lessons in reading NVC? It is a language skill and many kids are good at picking up languages. How good are my social skills going to be if I learn to say/do "A" when someone is angry or confused, if I can't tell when they are feeling these things? I think we do learn some of these things (especially over time) from watching movies or TV shows...at least the more obvious ones, but I know I still don't notice most of it and figure it out through the dialogue and cognitive understanding of the plot....then again, I watch more history channel then soap operas.
As far as expecting all NT's to give up NVC and learn to "use their words"...I gave up on my dream to ride a unicorn when I was about 10. I no more expect them to stop using it(as if they could) then that everyone in France should learn English before I come visit. What I would like, is for everyone in France to stop punishing me when I don't speak their language as well as I do as long as I am trying and to except that I may not have the cognitive ability to learn much of it. Really, I just want to be able to work hard and pay my rent without having a nervous break down or killing myself. I don't think that is to asking to much of the word but...history would seem to say that it is,so...?
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velodog
Gold Supporter
Joined: Mar 16, 2008
Posts: 1251
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| Willard wrote: |
LOL (literally). Spent the first part of a drunken Office Christmas party stripping down the boss' mistress in front of the staff and helping her Xerox her boobs (had an autographed copy hanging on my living room wall for years.
Unfortunately, at the time, I had no idea she was the boss' mistress. Ah, Cold Ethyl, you guileful minx.
Liquor? I don't even like her. |
 You are the man Willard, this incident must still be discussed at the water cooler and lunchroom. |
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