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tharn
Toucan
Joined: Apr 22, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 255
Location: Iowa
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 Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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I admit that poor grammar does drive me up a wall. However, when I hear it, I remind myself that someone may be speaking English as a second language, or has a learning problem, or just had bad teachers in school. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt.
I've also found that non-native speakers of languages tend to use better grammar. That's not to say they have a better command of the language; It's much harder to master the subtleties of butchering a language, than to learn the basic structure. I was often told often in my Russian courses, that a Russian could easily identify a foreigner, because they spoke proper Russian.
When someone online consistantly omits punctuation and capitalization, or writes as though they're text messaging their girlfriend, I usually ignore them. If someone doesn't care enough about what they're saying to communicate clearly, I assume they don't have anything of value to say. This doesn't include deliberate corruptions for the sake of humor (I can haz cheezeburger?). |
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Hodor
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 18, 2008
Age: 19
Posts: 834
Location: On a dumb island
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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I do not get annoyed by 'bad grammar,' whatever that is meant to be. It's human nature to criticise other people for their 'sloppy' or 'lazy' use of language, but we never bother to look at our own. Besides, the main purpose of language is to communicate effectively with other people. I am not condoning wholesale usage of non-standard words or grammar at all times, but understanding what the other person is saying is the crucial thing, not the intricate workings of their way of speaking or writing.
I for one am discouraged by the growth of 'Grammar Nazis' on the Internet. I am also appalled by the claims that non-native speakers can speak 'better' English than native speakers. I have no doubt that many non-native speakers can speak English fluently, but learners of a second language are usually taught a style of language that nobody really uses. Nobody speaks pure Standard English, and they shouldn't have to. Standard English is an artificial concept which is meant to be a middle ground for all speakers, but the dialect of none.
Nobody really talks in leet-speak or txt tlk so any fears that the English Language is going to the dogs are completely unfounded. Hell, the Romans abbreviated when they wrote graffiti, and that's not what killed the Latin language. 
| Odin wrote: | | when someone does this they should... |
The problem is, it's hard to write some sentences in a way that makes them gender-neutral. They is becoming a singular pronoun in some contexts because it avoids the clumsy sounding 'he or she.' English has no gender-neutral singular pronoun, so I don't see any alternative other than using singular 'they' in some instances.
/end controversial post.
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Sprecst žu englisc? |
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darkstone100
A dedicated Escapist.
Joined: Mar 05, 2008
Age: 19
Posts: 4025
Location: Yuma, AZ
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Odin wrote: | | darkstone100 wrote: | | I don't like the word y'all, its annoying becuase southern people use it as a cure all for the different form of "you", then they change that into, y'allses, all y'all. |
I've read that "Y'all" may be evidence that the 2nd Person Pronoun ("you") is splitting into singular and plural forms, with "you" being used when addressing a single person and "y'all" being used when addressing two or more people.
This also existed in Medieval English, "thou" was singular and "you" was plural |
if it's used correctly it doesn't bother me that much, but they use y'all for, a single person and groups of people at the same time. |
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twoshots
Honorary Vertebrate
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 2185
Location: NJ
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| darkstone100 wrote: | | Odin wrote: | | darkstone100 wrote: | | I don't like the word y'all, its annoying becuase southern people use it as a cure all for the different form of "you", then they change that into, y'allses, all y'all. |
I've read that "Y'all" may be evidence that the 2nd Person Pronoun ("you") is splitting into singular and plural forms, with "you" being used when addressing a single person and "y'all" being used when addressing two or more people.
This also existed in Medieval English, "thou" was singular and "you" was plural |
if it's used correctly it doesn't bother me that much, but they use y'all for, a single person and groups of people at the same time. |
Perhaps it's a formal use of the plural second person  e.g. use of "you" in early modern english
Presumptions of "poor grammar" are frequently if not invariably refuted by careful linguistic analysis. Languages are human constructs and the rules therefore exist to get the job done. Where "rules" are ignored, it means the listener is misapplying the rule and/or imposing an external standard which is no more significant than any other arbitrary convention.
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Spokane_Girl
I would walk 500 miles and I would walk 500 more
Joined: Jul 17, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 4235
Location: Benny & Joon town (I wish)
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Odin wrote: | | slowmutant wrote: | Have you ever had someone whom you like & respect speak poor English? I have, and I do. It's a brain-squeezer to hear an successful, intelligent, supposedly well-educated person say things like, "Youse guys," "Go to the libary," and my favourite,
"You're not doing too shithawk, are ya?"
You just have to accept other people's quirks. Kind of like how we insist that they accept ours. |
I have I bad habit of saying "I got something" from my parents, it should be I have something.  |
Or "I've got." |
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Spokane_Girl
I would walk 500 miles and I would walk 500 more
Joined: Jul 17, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 4235
Location: Benny & Joon town (I wish)
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder why so many people use bad grammar? Didn't they learn it in school? I have learned it and puncuation (sp) and capital words since second grade. When I was in fifth grade, mine was at the seventh or eigth grade level, I don't remember which.
I admit I use bad grammar myself sometimes because I am trying to explain something but I don't know how so I might end up using bad grammar. |
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1885
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Spokane_Girl wrote: | | Odin wrote: | | slowmutant wrote: | Have you ever had someone whom you like & respect speak poor English? I have, and I do. It's a brain-squeezer to hear an successful, intelligent, supposedly well-educated person say things like, "Youse guys," "Go to the libary," and my favourite,
"You're not doing too shithawk, are ya?"
You just have to accept other people's quirks. Kind of like how we insist that they accept ours. |
I have I bad habit of saying "I got something" from my parents, it should be I have something. |
Or "I've got." |
Oh, definitely!!! It should be "I've gotten"
"I got something" is actually perfectly fine in the past tense., the problem is that people use it instead of "have" in the present perfect sense.
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1885
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Spokane_Girl wrote: | | I wonder why so many people use bad grammar? Didn't they learn it in school? |
They learned it from mommy and daddy; babies and young children instinctively pick up the grammar they are exposed to, and once a non-standard grammar is learned it is very hard if not impossible to unlearn it one you start learning grammar in school, the non-standard grammar will always pop out in casual conversation.
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SabbraCadabra
Sea Gull
Joined: Apr 22, 2008
Posts: 1598
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 1:41 am Post subject: |
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| Hodor wrote: | | It's human nature to criticise other people for their 'sloppy' or 'lazy' use of language, but we never bother to look at our own. |
Believe me, it bugs me when I make mistakes. Especially in chatrooms/IMs, since you can't just edit them =/ |
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Spokane_Girl
I would walk 500 miles and I would walk 500 more
Joined: Jul 17, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 4235
Location: Benny & Joon town (I wish)
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| In IMs, spelling doesn't matter as long as it's readable. I am not going to sit here and type and have the other person waiting for my IM because I am making sure every word is spelled right. So it's faster to just type and not correct your mistakes. if anyone on there thought I really didn't know how to spell, I'd tell them to see my post on the forums and they will see what a much better speller I am because spelling matters on forums. I'm in no rush for posting is what. |
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tharn
Toucan
Joined: Apr 22, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 255
Location: Iowa
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: |
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I suppose the thing that annoys me isn't poor grammar per se. I just like to know that the person I'm talking to cares enough to make the effort to communicate clearly. Technically, it's poor grammar to end a sentence with a preposition. But there are cases where using proper grammar actually makes a sentence LESS readable - so, by all means, break the rule! And hey, if you type the word "freind" on accident, I know you meant "friend". It's cool.
But if I get a freeking migrane trying to figure out what you're saying, I'm prone to just give up. Happily, I haven't run into that here on WP. 
And Hodor - I am also annoyed by the lack of a neuter, personal pronoun in English. However, the convention of using "they" for the singular makes the sentence sound so bizarre. And it sounds particularly bad in short sentences: "They eats the pizza." If I use "he", I feel sexist. If I use "she", people assume I must be talking about a female, when I may not be. If I use "he/she" and "her/him", it interrupts the flow and sets a cold, technical, politically correct tone! Maybe we should adopt a word like "se" |
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1885
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| tharn wrote: | I suppose the thing that annoys me isn't poor grammar per se. I just like to know that the person I'm talking to cares enough to make the effort to communicate clearly. Technically, it's poor grammar to end a sentence with a preposition. But there are cases where using proper grammar actually makes a sentence LESS readable - so, by all means, break the rule! And hey, if you type the word "freind" on accident, I know you meant "friend". It's cool.
But if I get a freeking migrane trying to figure out what you're saying, I'm prone to just give up. Happily, I haven't run into that here on WP.
And Hodor - I am also annoyed by the lack of a neuter, personal pronoun in English. However, the convention of using "they" for the singular makes the sentence sound so bizarre. And it sounds particularly bad in short sentences: "They eats the pizza." If I use "he", I feel sexist. If I use "she", people assume I must be talking about a female, when I may not be. If I use "he/she" and "her/him", it interrupts the flow and sets a cold, technical, politically correct tone! Maybe we should adopt a word like "se" |
I agree, English is in desperate need of neuter 3st-person singular pronouns, He and She both are unvoiced fricative consonants follows by a long E so the new word should be the same, so it would be "Fe" or "Se"
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SamAckary
Pileated woodpecker
Joined: Mar 29, 2007
Posts: 184
Location: Berkshire
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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I get annoyed mainly when people speak badly, like saying 'pacific' instead of 'specific', thats annoying, though i will admit that i talk differently depending on the environment, such as right now im using my mildly formal standard, whereas at school i use slang and lots of swearing, but its kind of automatic, i seem to lower my intellectual threshhold down to the level of the people im speaking to, or vice-versa for more intelligent people
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Hodor
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 18, 2008
Age: 19
Posts: 834
Location: On a dumb island
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| tharn wrote: | | Technically, it's poor grammar to end a sentence with a preposition. But there are cases where using proper grammar actually makes a sentence LESS readable - so, by all means, break the rule! And hey, if you type the word "freind" on accident, I know you meant "friend". It's cool. |
Well, the rule that states that you shouldn't end a sentence with a preposition came from 18th century grammarians who were trying to 'tidy up' the English language. They used the logic that, since it's impossible to finish a sentence with a preposition in Latin, then it shouldn't be done in English either, because Latin was, apparently, the highest developed language in existence. This is complete nonsense.
Okay, sometimes it's bad style and clumsy to finish some sentences with a preposition, but the rule in general is an artificial one. As you said, making the sentence readable and unambiguous is the crucial thing.
--
As for the gender-neutral pronoun issue, several have been proposed: co, sie, xe, ve, ze, mer, tey, e, thon, shey and yo. Interestingly, "co" is used in contemporary everyday language by the 100 people who live at Twin Oaks Community in Virginia, USA. It is used to mean "s/he" in the case in which the gender is not known or is irrelevant.
There are also reports of students in Baltimore, Maryland, USA consistently using "yo" as a gender-neutral pronoun.
It will be interesting to see if any of them catch on and become part of Standard English. Meanwhile, we're stuck with 'he/she,' singular 'they' and using awkward word order to avoid using pronouns at all.
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ACHTUNG all WP'ers...I will not be online from Aug 18th for a while due to a house move. I'm still alive and well but might not have internet access for some time. So long!
[I have updated my blawg.]
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1885
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Hodor wrote: | | tharn wrote: | | Technically, it's poor grammar to end a sentence with a preposition. But there are cases where using proper grammar actually makes a sentence LESS readable - so, by all means, break the rule! And hey, if you type the word "freind" on accident, I know you meant "friend". It's cool. |
Well, the rule that states that you shouldn't end a sentence with a preposition came from 18th century grammarians who were trying to 'tidy up' the English language. They used the logic that, since it's impossible to finish a sentence with a preposition in Latin, then it shouldn't be done in English either, because Latin was, apparently, the highest developed language in existence. This is complete nonsense.
Okay, sometimes it's bad style and clumsy to finish some sentences with a preposition, but the rule in general is an artificial one. As you said, making the sentence readable and unambiguous is the crucial thing. |
The English grammarians of the 18th and 19th centuries were elitist twits, the morons who who went to war against "ain't" just because they didn't understand it's origin as a perfectly reasonable contraction of "am not." I don't have a problem with language change, I have a problem with too much language change in different directions in different areas because it makes it hard for people to understand each other. I have great trouble understanding African-American English, for example.
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