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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2033
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 Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| skafather84 wrote: |
i realize the failed logic here...you take it as all of YOUR morals should be legislated whereas you don't have any consideration for others. law is obviously morality in the sense of a basic code of conduct...it's inseparable. however, the separation is functionless morality like many of the arbitrary laws found within religious texts that may have been applicable and useful back in BC or even so far as 1500AD or later but many of the needs for those laws have disappeared as technology has gotten better and people have been able to operate more freely without the troubles previously caused by breaking those laws (take the muslim and jewish dietary laws regarding pork and shellfish for example).
laws are also in place to keep a semblance of order within society and again, this is constantly redrawn as better understanding is achieved on how society operates and how the individual operates.
you're still wrong..but it's mostly just because you're dismissive of scientific, technological, and medical progress. |
1) Your want in changing the definition of marriage is part of your moral agenda.
2) Nowhere have I brought religion as a focal point of my argument. You are blinded by your disdain towards religion and so you feel the need to constantly bring it up.
3) The part of Semblance of Order within a Society can be taken into consideration many ways. Just think about it.
4) I would like to understand your logic on me being dismissive of science, technology and medical practices. Really, I would like to. Considering that I'm against homosexual marriage, I don't see any of these coming into conflict with that stance.
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srriv345
Velociraptor
Joined: Jul 19, 2006
Age: 21
Posts: 425
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh, goodie! Now we get to apply to the government so they can tell us if we can get legally married or not. That's not open to abuse at all. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2033
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| srriv345 wrote: | | Oh, goodie! Now we get to apply to the government so they can tell us if we can get legally married or not. That's not open to abuse at all. |
Why shouldn't it? How many people marry to only divorce a month later? How many are coerced into marriage or marry with infidelities in mind?
As noted already, it is a "contract" with legal status.
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 5714
Location: United States
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: |
Why shouldn't it? How many people marry to only divorce a month later? How many are coerced into marriage or marry with infidelities in mind?
As noted already, it is a "contract" with legal status. |
Right, and as a contract, why can't it just be covered under contract law? The US government is not involved with creating and directly officiating every contract in existence, so why this one? |
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iamnotaparakeet
Centurio Caesareae
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Age: 22
Posts: 11615
Location: Domus Psittacorum
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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If marriage is not legally binding, then it is not serious.
If marriage is serious, then it is legally binding.
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Ego non sum parvus psittacus!
Es neesmu mazs papagailis!
Yo no soy un periquito! |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2033
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Awesomelyglorious wrote: | | oscuria wrote: |
Why shouldn't it? How many people marry to only divorce a month later? How many are coerced into marriage or marry with infidelities in mind?
As noted already, it is a "contract" with legal status. |
Right, and as a contract, why can't it just be covered under contract law? The US government is not involved with creating and directly officiating every contract in existence, so why this one? |
It's considered important, 
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srriv345
Velociraptor
Joined: Jul 19, 2006
Age: 21
Posts: 425
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: | | srriv345 wrote: | | Oh, goodie! Now we get to apply to the government so they can tell us if we can get legally married or not. That's not open to abuse at all. |
Why shouldn't it? How many people marry to only divorce a month later? How many are coerced into marriage or marry with infidelities in mind?
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You tell me. I have no reason to believe that this accounts for a significant percentage of marriages, and surely we should establish that fact before setting up what conservatives like to call a nanny state. Even divorce statistics can be misleading because they frequently refer to couples who married several decades previously. In previous times, people wouldn't even have lived that long to divorce each other. Personally, I think that if we want to take marriage seriously, we should stop treating it as a license to engage in sexual experiences. |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 5714
Location: United States
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: |
It's considered important, |
All the more reason to take it further away from the government. |
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skafather84
Platypus God
Joined: Mar 21, 2006
Age: 24
Posts: 4686
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: | | 1) Your want in changing the definition of marriage is part of your moral agenda. |
you're right. except my side hurts no one and you've yet to present any evidence otherwise. yours promotes discrimination based upon what is otherwise none of your damned business.
| oscuria wrote: |
2) Nowhere have I brought religion as a focal point of my argument. You are blinded by your disdain towards religion and so you feel the need to constantly bring it up. |
and nowhere have you brought any proof or even tried to disprove the pro argument other than stating your obviously ignorant points of view which are obviously derived from the christian faith. and i know that because no one else in the western world gives as much of a rat's ass about it as christians do. simple logic. something you're not capable of.
| oscuria wrote: | | 3) The part of Semblance of Order within a Society can be taken into consideration many ways. Just think about it. |
no, i'm not playing garbage semantics games with you. you've yet to present point 1 of a REAL reason for gay marriage to not be legalized.
| oscuria wrote: | | 4) I would like to understand your logic on me being dismissive of science, technology and medical practices. Really, I would like to. Considering that I'm against homosexual marriage, I don't see any of these coming into conflict with that stance. |
easy. you're not interested in facts. you've proven that over and over again in this thread. considering your religious preference, your militant stance within that preference, and your outspoken nature on such obvious issues, you most likely aren't the biggest supporter of therapeutic clone and likewise, you probably won't listen to sociological studies that say that gay marriage doesn't harm society and that kids of homosexual parents still grow up normal and healthy. of course since i'm calling you out on it, you can easily just dismiss it (this is the land of pretend, afterall)...but i'm not playing chess so i don't care if i move early. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2033
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| skafather84 wrote: |
you're right. except my side hurts no one and you've yet to present any evidence otherwise. yours promotes discrimination based upon what is otherwise none of your damned business.
and nowhere have you brought any proof or even tried to disprove the pro argument other than stating your obviously ignorant points of view which are obviously derived from the christian faith. and i know that because no one else in the western world gives as much of a rat's ass about it as christians do. simple logic. something you're not capable of.
no, i'm not playing garbage semantics games with you. you've yet to present point 1 of a REAL reason for gay marriage to not be legalized.
easy. you're not interested in facts. you've proven that over and over again in this thread. considering your religious preference, your militant stance within that preference, and your outspoken nature on such obvious issues, you most likely aren't the biggest supporter of therapeutic clone and likewise, you probably won't listen to sociological studies that say that gay marriage doesn't harm society and that kids of homosexual parents still grow up normal and healthy. of course since i'm calling you out on it, you can easily just dismiss it (this is the land of pretend, afterall)...but i'm not playing chess so i don't care if i move early. |
1) How can you declare that which involves society is not part of my business? Do people marry and retreat to the forests?
2) You are incapable of acknowledging other faiths. You have proven yourself anti-Christian.
Let me quote to you from the al quran il karim:
"And Lot! (Remember) when he said unto his folk: Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you? Lo! ye come with lust unto men instead of women."
"Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"
"Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant!"
"And Lot! (Remember) when he said unto his folk: Lo! ye commit lewdness such as no creature did before you."
India? They'll arrest and punish you if you are a homosexual. Neither Manu nor the Yajnavalkya smrti state that a marriage is to be between the same sexes.
3) You have yet to present a convincing one either. There is nothing in marriage that a homosexual can or should attain.
4) What does that have to do with Science, Technology, and Medical practices? You're just insulting my position against same-sex marriage.
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Griff
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 17, 2006
Posts: 1615
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: | | 1) How can you declare that which involves society is not part of my business? Do people marry and retreat to the forests? |
Gay marriage is just as much your business as it is your neighbor's. Yes, if gay marriage is offensive to your scruples, it is your place to feel out of sorts out of it. However, you have not given me any real reason that I should go to any great length to keep you from feeling out of sorts. In fact, I think that I would take delight in your misery. All the more reason for me to advocate gay marriage, I suppose. You haven't earned a scrap of my sympathy in all the time that I've known you.
| Quote: | | 2) You are incapable of acknowledging other faiths. You have proven yourself anti-Christian. |
So my sister is anti-Muslim if she doesn't wear a burka. I will inform her of this.
| Quote: | | India? They'll arrest and punish you if you are a homosexual. Neither Manu nor the Yajnavalkya smrti state that a marriage is to be between the same sexes. |
The sodomy laws in India are a hangover from British colonialism. One of their princes has made some of the opening moves in repairing this problem. It has cost him dearly, but he is a true hero for gay rights in his country. His countrymen will praise him for it one day, and perhaps his heritage will be restored. His integrity and heroism will be remembered. The Asian gay rights movement has begun.
I have heard you and your ilk insist that you bear no ill will toward homosexuals. I have heard your sort, when pressed, renounce such things as the sodomy laws. I have heard you deny that you are homophobic. Why don't you herald such men as Manvendra Singh Gohil as heroes of a good cause, though? Your silence is informative. I think that your ilk are insincere when you claim you are not homophobic. How can I not see you as liars when you speak elsewhere, then? How can I ever trust such as you? Why should your word have any meaning to me? for it doesn't; it is empty. It is nothing.
| Quote: | | 3) You have yet to present a convincing one either. There is nothing in marriage that a homosexual can or should attain. |
Socio-economic stability, commitment, and a sense of societal approval. Mostly, it is a sense of societal approval, and leadership in gay rights is one of California's most important symbols.
| Quote: | | 4) What does that have to do with Science, Technology, and Medical practices? You're just insulting my position against same-sex marriage. |
Whereas I just insult you personally. You're a dick. |
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iamnotaparakeet
Centurio Caesareae
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Age: 22
Posts: 11615
Location: Domus Psittacorum
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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You're free to advocate anything you want, and we are free to advocate against it.
_________________
Ego non sum parvus psittacus!
Es neesmu mazs papagailis!
Yo no soy un periquito! |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 5714
Location: United States
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: |
1) How can you declare that which involves society is not part of my business? Do people marry and retreat to the forests? |
Well, the issue is that EVERYTHING can be labeled as "involving society", but the idea of a free society IS that the choices of other people are their's and NOT part of your business. People marry and retreat to their homes, as it is a personal choice that involves you in only the slightest of degrees. There are a thousand things more public than this, so why this specifically?
| Quote: | 2) You are incapable of acknowledging other faiths. You have proven yourself anti-Christian.
Let me quote to you from the al quran il karim:
"And Lot! (Remember) when he said unto his folk: Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you? Lo! ye come with lust unto men instead of women."
"Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"
"Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant!"
"And Lot! (Remember) when he said unto his folk: Lo! ye commit lewdness such as no creature did before you."
India? They'll arrest and punish you if you are a homosexual. Neither Manu nor the Yajnavalkya smrti state that a marriage is to be between the same sexes. |
Christianity is the tradition best known here, but I bet that most atheists are anti-other religions too.
| Quote: | | 3) You have yet to present a convincing one either. There is nothing in marriage that a homosexual can or should attain. |
Should? Who determines should? We already know that marriage is a package of legal rights that can be useful for any couple. |
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skafather84
Platypus God
Joined: Mar 21, 2006
Age: 24
Posts: 4686
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Awesomelyglorious wrote: | | Quote: | | 3) You have yet to present a convincing one either. There is nothing in marriage that a homosexual can or should attain. |
Should? Who determines should? We already know that marriage is a package of legal rights that can be useful for any couple. |
the should is the bigotry that i repeatedly call out as such and as nothing more than a personal problem on the "none of your damned business" level. he feels like he is superior to everyone else and as such can define their lives legally as many fundy christians in this country do. |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 5714
Location: United States
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | You're free to advocate anything you want, and we are free to advocate against it. |
Well, that may be true, but the power to accomplish anything you advocate is a dangerous step towards fascism. When all choices made are seen as societal choices to be controlled at an arbitrary whim, then we lose that little thing called individual freedom. |
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