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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7897
Location: Dallas, Texas
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 Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| Odin wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | slowmutant wrote: | | Quote: | | Of course, Atheism is the LACK of belief, but that doesn't mean Atheists are nihilists, there are plenty of non-religious philosophies like Humanism. |
With only the absence of something to believe in, how can atheists be anything other than nihilistic? |
Atheism does put one well within arm's reach of nihilistic thoughts. |
No it doesn't.
Atheism being conflated with Nihilism is the result of subtle but pernicious dualistic assumptions permeating Western thought that leads the physical world to be degraded as being "mere" matter. Even many non-religious people still carry around these unquestioned assumptions. Atheism can only lead to nihilism if one still has these baseless dualistic assumptions in your mind. |
Where from my quote "Atheism does put one well within arm's reach of nihilistic thoughts" do you get
"Atheism = formal Nihilism"?
You're reading into my words your own biased interpretation, and then claiming your interpretation is what I said.
"Arm's reach" means it is very easily accessible to your present position,
not that it is one and the same as your position.
Distinctions, people, distinctions. Think them out, please.
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I shaved off my goatee so that my wife could read my facial expressions better. She feels much happier and closer to me now. (Just thought I'd share this advice for any other bearded members.) |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7897
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:08 am Post subject: Re: question for religious people |
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| xyzyxx wrote: | | snake321 wrote: | Ok, this can be for people of any monotheist religion, be it christianity, islam, judaism, w/e. So, you believe there is a humble, all powerful, all loving god..... Yet, god requires mere human beings (who are no doubt like ants compared to him), mere humans, to bow and worship him... That doesn't sound like a very humble act in my opinion.
Sounds more like subjugation, which is more or less slavery. For god to require us to bow to him or worship him would be very very egotistical, would it not? Plus it's like this, imagine I could somehow communicate with bugs, and I demanded them to worship me. What's the point? |
without reading the rest of the thread, let me answer this question myself based on what I know/what I have learned in my church.
First of all, God is not humble. He is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. He is more powerful than any other being in the universe. And he knows this. There is nothing humble about that. |
No, it's just sane.
If you truly are the best, which God is, then knowing so merely means you grasp reality.
_________________
I shaved off my goatee so that my wife could read my facial expressions better. She feels much happier and closer to me now. (Just thought I'd share this advice for any other bearded members.) |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7897
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| Sand wrote: | Fantastic! You know the mind of God.
The psychologist Szasz pointed out that many people speak to God but when they hear him answer it is usually a sign of schizophrenia. |
It's somewhat cute that Szasz uttered something he couldn't possibly know. 
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I shaved off my goatee so that my wife could read my facial expressions better. She feels much happier and closer to me now. (Just thought I'd share this advice for any other bearded members.) |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7897
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: Re: question for religious people |
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| oscuria wrote: | | snake321 wrote: |
Ok, if your arguing semantics. But for people who do believe in your god, they aren't allowed free will of thought. They claim (as you claim here) "god loves me", but "god" is very much a dictator here. |
His very title and commandment entrusts Him as such. He is Love to those who Love Him, to those He has given Mercy to.
The rest are those who rebel against Him and will find no Mercy. It is a very simple concept. He is Benevolent to those who Love Him, and a Tyrant to those whom He have not Graced. |
I can agree with this, but I do also believe God loves everyone, even while He gets angry at some.
One of my Biblically-derived logical maxims is: "To love goodness, you have to also hate evil." (Amos 5:15)
To be okay with both good and evil equally would not be loving good.
God is shown by Scripture to hate evil -- He absolutely hates it, with no apology -- but He loves all of his children,
even when they bastardize themselves by becoming the children of Satan instead of God.
Jesus: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." (John 8:44)
"And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." (Hebrews 12:5-8)
(To "chasten" in King James English means to discipline.)
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I shaved off my goatee so that my wife could read my facial expressions better. She feels much happier and closer to me now. (Just thought I'd share this advice for any other bearded members.) |
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1885
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | Sand wrote: |
It is the basic nature of religion to confer on its adherents the sense of possession of absolute truth and this is one of its most dangerous qualities for it gives religious people the license to commit frightful horrors on people who would doubt or defy those convictions. |
Religion also gives people an absolutely inviolable sense that they must do good for others,
and that, such as life is, we must often self-sacrifice in order to do so.
Focusing on high ideals like the will of a loving, all-powerful God causes one to love others,
and impresses upon one the fact that this necessity to show love is given by God, not by one's own
undependable, ever-changing emotional states. Therefore, to love one another is thought of by
Christians as an absolute command given by Jesus Himself. So, we can't
say, "Ah, I'm not in the mood to care about someone, or do anything good for
anyone, so I can just be selfish until I feel differently."
So, religion can give one a much more powerful and more focused sense of true goodness than atheism does. |
My non-religious supernatural beliefs are just as powerful and focused when it come to being a good person as the religious people claims their beliefs are.
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1885
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | greenblue wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | slowmutant wrote: | | Quote: | | Of course, Atheism is the LACK of belief, but that doesn't mean Atheists are nihilists, there are plenty of non-religious philosophies like Humanism. |
With only the absence of something to believe in, how can atheists be anything other than nihilistic? |
Atheism does put one well within arm's reach of nihilistic thoughts. |
ok, denying the existence in God, does not conform to all the requirements to follow nihilism philosophy and being considered nihilist, as you have said, you have read the Quran to criticize muslims, so I believe reading about nihilism would do some fairness. |
I said "nihilistic thoughts", not a formal, displined study of Nihilism.
The point is that atheism offers no grand purpose to the universe to focus on;
if the atheist wants such a grand purpose, he must try and inject one into it. ...Which, since it came from him to begin with,
is likely to be doubted by him during his times of depression. But God's principles are always true,
no matter how depressed or hopeless we temporarily become. He put the meaning into the universe,
so we don't have to try and take it upon ourselves to do so while throwing our own human errors and biases into the mix. |
I prefer to create my own meaning in a meaningless universe. I consider the notion that there is some meaning or ultimate purpose "out there" depressingly restrictive and anti-humanistic because it means that our lives are just part of some divine cosmic plan, cogs in a machine.
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iamnotaparakeet
Alpha Parrot
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 11784
Location: Domus Psittacorum
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Odin wrote: | | I prefer to create my own meaning in a meaningless universe. I consider the notion that there is some meaning or ultimate purpose "out there" depressingly restrictive and anti-humanistic because it means that our lives are just part of some divine cosmic plan, cogs in a machine. |
That assumes it is meaningless. No one can argue with you? Are you more open than this paragraph indicates? Deciding a case a priori just means rejection of evidence that doesn't fit the model. Pennies and dice, a priori works (if you limit your conditions sufficiently.) But even a penny can land on its edge.
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Don't look back, because infinity is waiting. |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7897
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Odin wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | Sand wrote: |
It is the basic nature of religion to confer on its adherents the sense of possession of absolute truth and this is one of its most dangerous qualities for it gives religious people the license to commit frightful horrors on people who would doubt or defy those convictions. |
Religion also gives people an absolutely inviolable sense that they must do good for others,
and that, such as life is, we must often self-sacrifice in order to do so.
Focusing on high ideals like the will of a loving, all-powerful God causes one to love others,
and impresses upon one the fact that this necessity to show love is given by God, not by one's own
undependable, ever-changing emotional states. Therefore, to love one another is thought of by
Christians as an absolute command given by Jesus Himself. So, we can't
say, "Ah, I'm not in the mood to care about someone, or do anything good for
anyone, so I can just be selfish until I feel differently."
So, religion can give one a much more powerful and more focused sense of true goodness than atheism does. |
My non-religious supernatural beliefs are just as powerful and focused when it come to being a good person as the religious people claims their beliefs are. |
How would you differentiate your "non-religious supernatural beliefs" from religion?
_________________
I shaved off my goatee so that my wife could read my facial expressions better. She feels much happier and closer to me now. (Just thought I'd share this advice for any other bearded members.) |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7897
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Odin wrote: |
I prefer to create my own meaning in a meaningless universe. |
I thought you said:
| Odin wrote: | | I don't need fairy tales. |
Which is it?
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I shaved off my goatee so that my wife could read my facial expressions better. She feels much happier and closer to me now. (Just thought I'd share this advice for any other bearded members.) |
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greenblue
¸.·´´¯`··.¸.·´
Joined: Mar 26, 2007
Posts: 7908
Location: Home
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | I said "nihilistic thoughts", not a formal, displined study of Nihilism.
The point is that atheism offers no grand purpose to the universe to focus on; |
I see your point here, although the term "nihilist thoughts" can been interpreted as acussing them of nihilists, not just that, but I believe the term is incorrect, even when you are trying to show a point there, I have to say your point of view is that of without God there is no purpose in life and therefore the "nihilist" though.
| Quote: | | if the atheist wants such a grand purpose, he must try and inject one into it. ...Which, since it came from him to begin with. |
Ok, here we go again depending on what point of view you see it, some atheists and agnostics can agree that some or most of moral values came from Christianity, and to be fair, Judaism should be the one to take credit for it, because, according to history, all came from it, however, the though of keeping some of the values or evolving from them is great and should be followed and becoming more like humane principles rather than just religion and rituals, without going with the supernatural thought, today, and being flexible about things, is what most, including myself, think.
| Quote: | is likely to be doubted by him during his times of depression. But God's principles are always true,
no matter how depressed or hopeless we temporarily become. |
Yes, that's true, that happens, in times of distress and desperation atheists can question their beliefs and thinking of the possibility of a God due to distress so they can have some hope in such situations. Now, trying to see this objectively, that is a psychological issue, note that I am not neccesarily denying anything with this, but should be taken into consideration.
| Quote: | He put the meaning into the universe,
so we don't have to try and take it upon ourselves to do so while throwing our own human errors and biases into the mix. |
Actually, for what we can see, humans have tried to put a meaning to the universe and to life itself, we see a lot of philosophies and religions and stuff that try to make sense of everything, there is no one single meaning of the universe, established, there are several.
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Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods. ~Einstein. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2066
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: Re: question for religious people |
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| Ragtime wrote: |
I can agree with this, but I do also believe God loves everyone, even while He gets angry at some.
One of my Biblically-derived logical maxims is: "To love goodness, you have to also hate evil." (Amos 5:15)
To be okay with both good and evil equally would not be loving good.
God is shown by Scripture to hate evil -- He absolutely hates it, with no apology -- but He loves all of his children,
even when they bastardize themselves by becoming the children of Satan instead of God.
Jesus: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." (John 8:44)
|
Yes, but it was my explanation as to why atheists have a negative view of Him because He has not shown/revealed Himself to them (find Mercy in them). He is Judgment, and as Judge will decide on His Children (of course this is attribution which contradicts my belief, but it helps in explaining what is seen).
I honestly don't believe in an eternal Hell, I actually don't believe in a "Hell" so to speak, but if one existed I am certain the great majority are going there.
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1885
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | Odin wrote: | | I prefer to create my own meaning in a meaningless universe. I consider the notion that there is some meaning or ultimate purpose "out there" depressingly restrictive and anti-humanistic because it means that our lives are just part of some divine cosmic plan, cogs in a machine. |
That assumes it is meaningless. No one can argue with you? Are you more open than this paragraph indicates? Deciding a case a priori just means rejection of evidence that doesn't fit the model. Pennies and dice, a priori works (if you limit your conditions sufficiently.) But even a penny can land on its edge. |
I don't see any evidence for meaning or purpose in the universe, and thus I have no reason to think there is any. If there does turn out to be Ultimate Meaning and Ultimate Purpose I'll accept the fact, but I won't like it.
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My Blog: http://selzshaven.blogspot.com
Last edited by Odin on Wed May 21, 2008 9:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1885
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | Odin wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | Sand wrote: |
It is the basic nature of religion to confer on its adherents the sense of possession of absolute truth and this is one of its most dangerous qualities for it gives religious people the license to commit frightful horrors on people who would doubt or defy those convictions. |
Religion also gives people an absolutely inviolable sense that they must do good for others,
and that, such as life is, we must often self-sacrifice in order to do so.
Focusing on high ideals like the will of a loving, all-powerful God causes one to love others,
and impresses upon one the fact that this necessity to show love is given by God, not by one's own
undependable, ever-changing emotional states. Therefore, to love one another is thought of by
Christians as an absolute command given by Jesus Himself. So, we can't
say, "Ah, I'm not in the mood to care about someone, or do anything good for
anyone, so I can just be selfish until I feel differently."
So, religion can give one a much more powerful and more focused sense of true goodness than atheism does. |
My non-religious supernatural beliefs are just as powerful and focused when it come to being a good person as the religious people claims their beliefs are. |
How would you differentiate your "non-religious supernatural beliefs" from religion? |
I don't believe in supernatural realms and transcendent beings. I have a Naturalistic belief system, not a supernaturalistic one.
http://www.naturalism.org
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1885
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | Odin wrote: |
I prefer to create my own meaning in a meaningless universe. |
I thought you said:
| Odin wrote: | | I don't need fairy tales. |
Which is it? |
Creating my own meaning and purpose is not creating fairy tales. Is wanting to reduce people's suffering a fairy tale? Is wanting to make the world a better place a fairy tale? Is wanting to advance Civilization a fairy tale? Is appreciating the beauty and wonder of the Universe a fairy tale? Is wanting to understand the way Nature works a fairy tale?
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2066
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Odin wrote: |
Creating my own meaning and purpose is not creating fairy tales. Is wanting to reduce people's suffering a fairy tale? Is wanting to make the world a better place a fairy tale? Is wanting to advance Civilization a fairy tale? Is appreciating the beauty and wonder of the Universe a fairy tale? Is wanting to understand the way Nature works a fairy tale? |
Does not a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, et al. have the same goals? Yet you would not hesitate to consider their beliefs fairy tales.
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