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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2066
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 Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:46 am Post subject: |
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| Speckles wrote: | Hmm, to me the humble part isn't the problem. It's having a god who is all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful, yet still has a hell.
Thing is, if god know everything, then she knows what everyone is going to do. From the point an innocent baby is born, she can tell whether its actions will lead it to hell or not. Since she is all-powerful, she could change things so that person didn't go to hell.
Now, the immediate counter arguement to this is the free will shtick, but this still falls through IMO. God doesn't have to change your mind to alter the course of your life, she can simply alter your circumstances. If she has created a world in which you must believe certain things in order to get to heaven, but where the environment that people live in causes them to doubt those things, she is effectively being sadistic. If I were to put you in a room with twelve objects and then say I'm going to shoot you unless you bring the right one to me, then I really am being a dick. Yet that apparently is what god is doing - giving us a bunch of religions that claim that if you don't follow them you're going to hell.
One of these things must not be true. Personally, I prefer to believe that there is no hell, and that all actions lead to the same ending. Whether that is oblivion, reincarnation, or heaven, I don't know. |
Are you pagan by any chance?
Free-will is not compatible with an Omnipotent/Omniscient Creator. I have yet to find an explanation that convinces me of such. Also, like I commented above, the "Benevolent Creator" is given because that is what people feel towards Him (or the emotions they feel during Spiritual moments). |
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Escuerd
Blue Jay
Joined: May 02, 2008
Age: 24
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 2:00 am Post subject: Re: question for religious people |
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| oscuria wrote: | Fundamentally, Allah is Allah. Everything else are descriptions (even the title Allah for the ineffable). What I mean by attributes is the declaration of the Creator being this and this, or this and that only. When doing such, conflict arises because people will begin to wonder "ar-Rahman? If he was most Beneficient then why do I have nothing? ar-Raheem? If he was truly most Merciful, he wouldn't have taken my family."
These descriptions are really nothing more than honorifics. If Allah was a being like us, then He would have attributes because He could be easily distinguished, and easily discredited. Like the 99 names of Allah: as-samad, al-malik, al-kareem, as-salaam, etc. Allah is Allah. Nothing more and Nothing less.
I'm sure my explanation comes close to actually being attributes but I just don't see it that way. Now for your last question, I find that the attributes/descriptions applied are based on emotion. Going by Arabic titles, I consider the Lord al-Aziz, because it's what makes sense. But to go back to the beginning, He just is. Everything else is just our way of trying to make sense. |
This is interesting. I'm not entirely clear on what you're saying. Do you consider the "Bismillah" an expression of emotion that, literally interpreted, is making a false statement?
Separately, couldn't it be said that all things that are "just are" and that any attributes we ascribe to them are just our way of making sense of them?
To me it seems that even stating that there are no attributes that describe a given thing is implicitly giving it the attribute of "indescribable". An attribute can be true of something without being a total description of that thing, right? |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2066
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 2:23 am Post subject: Re: question for religious people |
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| Escuerd wrote: |
This is interesting. I'm not entirely clear on what you're saying. Do you consider the "Bismillah" an expression of emotion that, literally interpreted, is making a false statement?
Separately, couldn't it be said that all things that are "just are" and that any attributes we ascribe to them are just our way of making sense of them?
To me it seems that even stating that there are no attributes that describe a given thing is implicitly giving it the attribute of "indescribable". An attribute can be true of something without being a total description of that thing, right? |
Bismillah is a prayer/supplication, at least from what I understand. It is also an acknowledgment. What do you mean by making a false statement?
Yes.
I understand the last part. It's a tricky situation, being that it is either describable/with attributes or indescribable/no attributes. The latter just doesn't specify. Myself, I don't like giving attributes and titles because it seems like idolatry. I'd rather just say "He Is." Usually the person will understand this. There is really nothing more that I can add. He is Everything and Nothing.
Most of the people I've told that to don't like the response though.  |
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Speckles
Velociraptor
Joined: May 03, 2008
Posts: 448
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 2:41 am Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: | | Speckles wrote: | Hmm, to me the humble part isn't the problem. It's having a god who is all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful, yet still has a hell.
Thing is, if god know everything, then she knows what everyone is going to do. From the point an innocent baby is born, she can tell whether its actions will lead it to hell or not. Since she is all-powerful, she could change things so that person didn't go to hell.
Now, the immediate counter arguement to this is the free will shtick, but this still falls through IMO. God doesn't have to change your mind to alter the course of your life, she can simply alter your circumstances. If she has created a world in which you must believe certain things in order to get to heaven, but where the environment that people live in causes them to doubt those things, she is effectively being sadistic. If I were to put you in a room with twelve objects and then say I'm going to shoot you unless you bring the right one to me, then I really am being a dick. Yet that apparently is what god is doing - giving us a bunch of religions that claim that if you don't follow them you're going to hell.
One of these things must not be true. Personally, I prefer to believe that there is no hell, and that all actions lead to the same ending. Whether that is oblivion, reincarnation, or heaven, I don't know. |
Are you pagan by any chance?
Free-will is not compatible with an Omnipotent/Omniscient Creator. I have yet to find an explanation that convinces me of such. Also, like I commented above, the "Benevolent Creator" is given because that is what people feel towards Him (or the emotions they feel during Spiritual moments). |
Actually, IMO free-will does work so long as the Creator doesn't really care what you do. Just because you know everything and CAN change anything doesn't mean you have to. Though, when you think about it Omnipotent/Omniscient doesn't work together - if you know everything, then you know what you are going to do next, and so have no choice in the matter. If you do something different, then you didn't know what you were going to do, and so don't know everything.
God powers lead to many paradoxes.
As for spirituality, I'd call myself a christian-flavor agnostic. The church I grew up in has always been very low key - I've always felt very supported by it, and never forced to go against my reason. I've openly admitted my doubt to the minister - he said he thought it was a good thing, since it showed I was thinking and not blindly accepting what I was being told.
I might be able to doubt god, but I can't doubt the love and support of my church; denying it would only hurt the people around me and myself. If they are willing to accept my doubt, I'm willing to accept their faith. |
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Sand
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 2148
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| The basic claim that people are only good because of their religion is a neat piece of propaganda for religion but the fact is that religious people can be both very nice people or some can be totally vicious. It is good people that create goodness within the church, not that the church scares the hell out of people to be good. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2066
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:02 am Post subject: |
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| Speckles wrote: |
Actually, IMO free-will does work so long as the Creator doesn't really care what you do. Just because you know everything and CAN change anything doesn't mean you have to. Though, when you think about it Omnipotent/Omniscient doesn't work together - if you know everything, then you know what you are going to do next, and so have no choice in the matter. If you do something different, then you didn't know what you were going to do, and so don't know everything.
God powers lead to many paradoxes.
As for spirituality, I'd call myself a christian-flavor agnostic. The church I grew up in has always been very low key - I've always felt very supported by it, and never forced to go against my reason. I've openly admitted my doubt to the minister - he said he thought it was a good thing, since it showed I was thinking and not blindly accepting what I was being told.
I might be able to doubt god, but I can't doubt the love and support of my church; denying it would only hurt the people around me and myself. If they are willing to accept my doubt, I'm willing to accept their faith. |
Shekhinah. You kept referring to the Creator as She, confused me a bit.
Now, I see no problem with Omnipotent/Omniscient Creator because that would mean that WE are in the wrong in our thoughts, and not Him. That is to say, our prayer is null, our want is null, our desires are null. Thus leaving only ONE will and that is His. There is no intercession. Just Divine Will. What I am typing does not come from me, neither the words I say, nor the words I speak. The thoughts are not my own. Prayer is a humbling act. There should be no desire except want of return.
The best way to live is to live as if you are in control. No use in just sitting around. However, no one living is ever in control.
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Escuerd
Blue Jay
Joined: May 02, 2008
Age: 24
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:29 am Post subject: Re: question for religious people |
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| oscuria wrote: | | Bismillah is a prayer/supplication, at least from what I understand. It is also an acknowledgment. What do you mean by making a false statement? |
I meant to ask whether you believe that a statement like "Allah is merciful," is false because, if it is true, then I guess I don't see how "merciful" is not an attribute. It wouldn't have to be a complete description to be one attribute.
| oscuria wrote: | | I understand the last part. It's a tricky situation, being that it is either describable/with attributes or indescribable/no attributes. The latter just doesn't specify. |
I'd even go as far as to say the latter description is self-contradictory given that it's, well, a description.
| oscuria wrote: | Myself, I don't like giving attributes and titles because it seems like idolatry. I'd rather just say "He Is." Usually the person will understand this. There is really nothing more that I can add. He is Everything and Nothing.
Most of the people I've told that to don't like the response though. |
Well, I'd guess that it's because the term "Everything and Nothing" seems contradictory. I know that it can be interpreted in coherent ways (if you mean the two words in a different sense), but even then it's ambiguous (if poetic). My guess would be that you mean all things are a part of Allah, but that Allah is not limited to any given thing? |
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Escuerd
Blue Jay
Joined: May 02, 2008
Age: 24
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: | The best way to live is to live as if you are in control. No use in just sitting around. However, no one living is ever in control.
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You sound like a practical determinist. I consider myself one too (though my specific type of determinism, and my reason for it are almost certainly different) in a sense.
I once knew a girl who was, on the contrary, a fatalist. She wouldn't wear a seatbelt because she believed all things were pre-determined anyway. I couldn't convince her that "fate" seemed to favor the prepared (clearly she didn't believe in causal determinism). |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2066
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:43 am Post subject: Re: question for religious people |
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| Escuerd wrote: | | oscuria wrote: | | Bismillah is a prayer/supplication, at least from what I understand. It is also an acknowledgment. What do you mean by making a false statement? |
I meant to ask whether you believe that a statement like "Allah is merciful," is false because, if it is true, then I guess I don't see how "merciful" is not an attribute. It wouldn't have to be a complete description to be one attribute.
| oscuria wrote: | | I understand the last part. It's a tricky situation, being that it is either describable/with attributes or indescribable/no attributes. The latter just doesn't specify. |
I'd even go as far as to say the latter description is self-contradictory given that it's, well, a description.
| oscuria wrote: | Myself, I don't like giving attributes and titles because it seems like idolatry. I'd rather just say "He Is." Usually the person will understand this. There is really nothing more that I can add. He is Everything and Nothing.
Most of the people I've told that to don't like the response though. |
Well, I'd guess that it's because the term "Everything and Nothing" seems contradictory. I know that it can be interpreted in coherent ways (if you mean the two words in a different sense), but even then it's ambiguous (if poetic). My guess would be that you mean all things are a part of Allah, but that Allah is not limited to any given thing? |
I am not going to explain Islam as that isn't my religion. I know about Islam but certainly not enough to be considered expert. I love Islam, but it is not for me.
Personally, I don't see a problem with saying "The Lord is merciful, He is benevolent" etc. But that is a limitation. If He is to be given attributes, then what of His judging? What of His punishments? If He is to be given attributes, then as a Creator He is Everything.
There will always be contradictions. How can there not be? Saying "He is Love" is contradictory to the eyes. I prefer to look upon Him as without attributes. In doing so I keep myself from humanizing Him. And yes.
And yes I do adhere to determinism.  |
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peebo
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
Posts: 718
Location: aberdeen
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:56 am Post subject: |
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yes snake, it does seem like a rather sado-masochistic tendency...
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"Those who long ago began the critique of political economy by defining it as "the final denial of humanity" were not deceived. One still recognizes this trait in it."
Guy Debord |
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Rossi
Blue Jay
Joined: Jul 02, 2007
Posts: 82
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 4:29 am Post subject: |
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The biggest problem of you guys (thread opener and supporters) is, that you are picking attributes of religion, process them through your "science-or-nothing"-mind, of course come to the conclusion that it makes no sense and therefore must be a lie, delusion, even flawed mental health of the believers.
You have two options - open your mind for religion or leave it.
If you open your mind for religion you just have to accept that it is insufficient to judge God from purely human concepts or attributes (e.g. this world does not fit my idea of a benevolent god, therefore god would be rather sadistic). You have to accept that there is a level of existence in this world that is far beyond the scope of our understanding and conceptualization.
If you try to fully understand God you (any human being) must fail by nature, because God must be far beyond human scope ! Therefore taking your inability to understand God as a proof of his nonexistence is flawed by nature.
I know that you will reject that idea, because you choose option two - you leave it. You call anything beyond your scope delusion. But maybe it's still worthwhile for you to just think about the fact, that there may be a different concept of life and the world, different to your "I don't believe in what I can't see, touch, smell, express mathematically"-concept - that there is no right or wrong, just two options. |
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Sand
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 2148
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| If there is a level far beyond my capability to understand then here is no point in my attempt to understand or deal with it in any way. Better not bother. |
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Paperplate
Snowy Owl
Joined: Jan 29, 2008
Age: 33
Posts: 169
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| CityAsylum wrote: | | Fred2670 wrote: | You cant continue to create threads like these
and maintain any hope of getting into heaven.. |
Yeah, that's kind of the belief held by the repressed idiots who flew planes into the World Trade Towers - they did it because they were told they would get into heaven and be able to scr*w virgins if they killed all of us infidels in NYC.
Afterwards Osama bin Laden laughed at them for falling for it - religion is just a powertool for him, and many other jerks who tell others how to behave, in the name of God. Personally, I'd prefer to see people getting laid on Earth, and not running around killing innocent people so that they can get some action in the afterlife. Religions have the potential to derange dimwits, and then just look at what they do. 
I respect people who wish to observe their own religions, but they need to keep their noses out of everybody else's business - that means respecting people's rights to post threads like this, even if you choose to believe that it will keep them out of heaven. |
A M E N
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only dead fish go with the flow |
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Sand
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 2148
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| As someone with a realistic concept of how things work I feel no threat of being excluded from either heaven or the big rock candy mountain. |
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iamnotaparakeet
Alpha Parrot
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 11784
Location: Domus Psittacorum
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: question for religious people |
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| snake321 wrote: | Ok, this can be for people of any monotheist religion, be it christianity, islam, judaism, w/e. So, you believe there is a humble, all powerful, all loving god..... Yet, god requires mere human beings (who are no doubt like ants compared to him), mere humans, to bow and worship him... That doesn't sound like a very humble act in my opinion.
Sounds more like subjugation, which is more or less slavery. For god to require us to bow to him or worship him would be very very egotistical, would it not? Plus it's like this, imagine I could somehow communicate with bugs, and I demanded them to worship me. What's the point? |
I don't think that God is humble or by any means has to be. For you to insert that belief, well, that is your entire argument.
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