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lau
Non-abelian, simple sexaginta! Male + silly bits.
Joined: Jun 18, 2006
Age: 60
Posts: 7700
Location: Somerset UK
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 Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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Ah. So these herbalists give away all their time and concoctions? They will compensate you for any lack of effect, or ill effects?
(I note you have yet to give any reference to solid evidence, but that's no surprise.)
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LeKiwi
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Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 2630
Location: The murky waters of my mind...
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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If they're a licensed practitioner, that should be covered in their license.
(As with anything, don't go to any old random off the street, make sure you're going to someone with a good reptutation who knows what they're talking about and has the licenses and paperwork and qualifications to prove it!)
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lau
Non-abelian, simple sexaginta! Male + silly bits.
Joined: Jun 18, 2006
Age: 60
Posts: 7700
Location: Somerset UK
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| LeKiwi wrote: | If they're a licensed practitioner, that should be covered in their license.
(As with anything, don't go to any old random off the street, make sure you're going to someone with a good reptutation who knows what they're talking about and has the licenses and paperwork and qualifications to prove it!) |
And what would a "licence" look like? Do herbalists give each other licences? I gather that is what you are talking about... these people who call themselves "master herbalists".
Herbs are drugs. I prefer to get my drugs from someone who knows what they are talking about.
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GodsGadfly
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: May 22, 2008
Age: 31
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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"Most peculiar... rather than using well controlled and monitored treatments, you are happy to stick large amounts of untested Echinacea plant bits inside yourself, and advocate that others should also do so. "
Now, for me, it's a question of *which* ""well controlled and monitored treatments" you're referring to, and what they're supposed to do.
Vaccines: I am not entirely against vaccines on principle, just specific ones, for specific reasons. And my personal experiences with the flu vaccine have been bad. So that's not an option for me.
OTC "cold remedies" and antihystamines: these treat the symptoms, not the disease. I use them for allergies, and I use them if my symptoms are at dangerous levels. But, since the symptoms (e.g., running nose or coughing) are the body's response to the infectino, trying to get it out of my system, I find I have better results not using that stuff when I'm sick.
Echinacea is billed as an alternative to antibiotics. I am a big fan of antibiotics. It used to be, in the first few years after my heart surgery, and given my history of chronic bronchitis, all I had to do was call my cardiologist's office, and he'd prescribe me prophylactic antibiotics. After I stopped getting the flu shot, and as long as I got those "just in case" antibiotics, I never got a secondary infection, and my artificial valve graft has remained fairly healthy for 12 years.
However, after I moved to VA, I couldn't find a doctor that would willingly give me the prophylactic prescription. They all insisted on seeing evidence of an infection before they'd give antibiotics. Therefore, I *had* to research alternatives, and tried echinacea. |
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LeKiwi
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 2630
Location: The murky waters of my mind...
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| lau wrote: | | LeKiwi wrote: | If they're a licensed practitioner, that should be covered in their license.
(As with anything, don't go to any old random off the street, make sure you're going to someone with a good reptutation who knows what they're talking about and has the licenses and paperwork and qualifications to prove it!) |
And what would a "licence" look like? Do herbalists give each other licences? I gather that is what you are talking about... these people who call themselves "master herbalists".
Herbs are drugs. I prefer to get my drugs from someone who knows what they are talking about. |
Where I'm from you have to undergo at least three years full-time study which includes physiology, anatomy, the herbs themselves of course, some 'mainstream medicine', and drug interactions and chemistry to gain at minimum a govt-recognised diploma degree, if not a full bachelors, to be able to call yourself a herbalist and practise as one. After that you need to apply for registration with the various associations and regulatory groups that exist within the field of natural medicine to be taken seriously and allowed to practise fully (for the reasons you said), and they're pretty tough on whether or not you can join and what the requirements are. So if you go to see someone accredited and registered it's hardly going to be someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.
I know here in the UK it's still considered 'hippies' and 'fringe people', but in other places we're slightly more progressive. 
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lau
Non-abelian, simple sexaginta! Male + silly bits.
Joined: Jun 18, 2006
Age: 60
Posts: 7700
Location: Somerset UK
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| GodsGadfly wrote: | | ...Therefore, I *had* to research alternatives, and tried echinacea. |
Did it help?
And, the question would be, how did you measure how much was a real effect and how much was the placebo effect.
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lau
Non-abelian, simple sexaginta! Male + silly bits.
Joined: Jun 18, 2006
Age: 60
Posts: 7700
Location: Somerset UK
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| LeKiwi wrote: | | ... After that you need to apply for registration with the various associations and regulatory groups that exist within the field of natural medicine ... |
I take it that you are saying that there is no accreditation, other than amongst themselves. I believe that's what I was saying. I did look for some indication of an independent body, in your neck of the woods, but couldn't find one.
As you give no links to such a thing, I take it it does not exist. I.e. that there are no "qualified herbalists", other than those that certify each other.
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LeKiwi
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 2630
Location: The murky waters of my mind...
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Integrated medicine is something you don't get in the UK, but which is growing rapidly and very popular in NZ. Basically it means doctors work closely with natural medicine doctors of different disciplines and refer patients to them, and vice versa, so they get the best care possible. This can often be in clinics under the same roof... As such, the government recognises it and has strict training rules and regulations for the diplomas and degrees available. It's not a fringe subject like it is in England; it's a growing, recognised, and strongly regulated field just like any other. It doesn't shun modern medicine - the idea is to work alongside it and use the latest advances in natural medicine to do the best possible.
http://www.naturalhealthcouncil.org.nz/index.html
This is the NZ Natural Health Council (formerly the NZ Natural Health Practitioners Accreditation Board)... name says it all.
http://www.healthcharter.org.nz/
This is the NZ Charter of Health Practitioners
Both do accreditation, insurance, regulation etc.
This is the main association of herbalists in NZ:
http://nzamh.org.nz/aboutus.asp
The main association of natural therapists is here:
http://www.nznma.com/
- and they have extremely strict joining criteria, including a degree, training in health sciences (including biochem, physiology, anatomy, etc), minimum 5 years practise, and continue training and development. Doctors, nurses etc can also join as associate members, again provided they meet the criteria. They also promote integrated healthcare models which are something growing in NZ, with plenty of GPs training in natural medicine as well, and mixed-discipline clinics popping up everywhere.
You have to have a degree from one of the approved schools to register with either of them, and all degrees are government recognised and approved.
http://www.naturopath.org.nz/about.html Is another NZ Naturopathic one with links to insurance companies that cover natural medicine in their healthcare plans, and government trainig etc - joining rules aren't quite so strict but you still need a degree to be a full member.
As for the schools themselves -
http://www.wellpark.co.nz is the most widely recognised natural medicine school in NZ, and has the only govt-recognised course in Ayurveda in the western world. Note that the naturopathy one will soon be a bachelor degree. They train students to work in Integrated Clinics, which I have yet to see here but which there are a good number of in NZ, basically where doctors, naturopaths, nutritions, herbal doctors, etc work together referring patients to one another so they get the best treatment possible.
http://www.spcnt.ac.nz/ is the other top one in the country, also providing a diploma of herbal medicine - this one is less practical based (ie you don't get as many hours clinical practise) and more classroom, but government recognised all the same and with solid courses.
http://www.ccnm.ac.nz/Diploma-in-Clinical-Herbal-Medicine.html is another one based in the South Island, also a govt-recognised course and a school with a good reputation
They're probably the three most well-known, though there are several others that will provide it in NZ.
There you go.....
And if you still think it's a bit of a fringe hippie load of nonsense, it might interest you to see the complementary medicine journal Oxford University have seen fit to put out - the Oxford Journal of Evidence-based Complementary and Alternative Medicine. http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/
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We are a fever, we are a fever, we ain't born typical...
New Blog: http://onelittleaspergian.blogspot.com/ |
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lau
Non-abelian, simple sexaginta! Male + silly bits.
Joined: Jun 18, 2006
Age: 60
Posts: 7700
Location: Somerset UK
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting, again.
I see that the herbalist club exists and so does the naturopath one.
There are schools taht will sell you a piece of paper.
Oddly, the NZQA at http://www.nzqa.govt.nz/ does not seem to actually recognise the diplomas they offer.
WRT the Oxford bunch, they sound useful, but I found the abstract at http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/5/2/123 to be a little worrying:
| Quote: | | This article discusses some of the misconceptions of evidence-based research in the health sciences. It proposes that since not all treatments in medicine and dentistry can be evidence-based, clinical applications of the evidence-based process should become a specialty. The case is particularly evident in dentistry. Therefore dentistry is taken in this article as a model for discussion. We propose that to approach dentistry from the viewpoint of the patient-oriented evidence that matters (POEM) is perfectly acceptable so far as we also engage in the process of research evaluation and appraisal in dentistry (READ). We distinguish between dentistry based on the evidence, and evidence-based dentistry. We argue that when invoking an evidence-based approach to dentistry or medicine, it is not sufficient to establish the ‘levels of evidence’, but rather that all evidence-based clinical intervention must undergo the stringent process of evidence-based research so that clinical practice guidelines be revised based on the best available evidence. |
I read that as an article in "Evidence-based Complementary and Alternative Medicine" saying it won't be evidence-based.
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LeKiwi
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 2630
Location: The murky waters of my mind...
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lau
Non-abelian, simple sexaginta! Male + silly bits.
Joined: Jun 18, 2006
Age: 60
Posts: 7700
Location: Somerset UK
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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... it didn't for me. I was searching for the subject qualifications, not just looking up the schools.
I see the NZ School of Acupuncture & TCM even offer a bachelor degree in Acupuncture. My... how sad.
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jamescampbell
Sea Gull
Joined: Apr 24, 2008
Age: 14
Posts: 228
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| dosn't this sound a lot like orange fanta gives you cancer? |
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LeKiwi
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 2630
Location: The murky waters of my mind...
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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Depends what country you're in. The chemicals in orange fanta may indeed give you cancer... for example, looking at the wikipedia entry for it, the Spanish version has sodium benzoate with ascorbic acid, which is a recipe for benzene, a carcinogen. Sodium benzoate also causes hyperactivity in children (and adults!).
The US version has high-fructose corn syrup, which is linked to diabetes, obesity, heart problems, blood pressure problems, etc etc and is very, very toxic.
The UK version has aspartame (one of the most toxic food ingredients in existence and a very potent carcinogen), and sodium saccharine, which isn't a great deal better.
So some countries have it better than others. But yes, there is a good chance that it could give you cancer in more than a few. 
..........and to get back to vaccines...........
Jabby jabby jab jab.
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We are a fever, we are a fever, we ain't born typical...
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sartresue
Radical Aspergian
Joined: Dec 19, 2007
Posts: 2382
Location: The Castle of Shock and Awe-tism
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| LeKiwi wrote: |
..........and to get back to vaccines...........
Jabby jabby jab jab. |
Jabberwocky toxic topic
Give me more jabs!  The more I get, the better I feel! 
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Radical Aspergian
Awe-Tistic Whirlwind
Phuture Phounder of the Philosophy Phactory |
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LeKiwi
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 2630
Location: The murky waters of my mind...
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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The only jabs I like are the ones where they take your blood and give it to people who need it. Mmmmm. Feel-good vampire syndrome. 
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