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asplanet
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 11, 2007
Posts: 2269
Location: Cyberspace, New Zealand
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 Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 6:59 am Post subject: |
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It does worry me that these conferences seem to be getting bigger and bigger and cost more and more and can be quite overpowering to the people who its trying to help.
I know it helps some people and thats great, but these events are already quite often over promoted and I have found being on the autism spectrum myself not vcery helpful in the fact that they are a little text book style, which I am not.. I do not need someone else to tell me how to feel and think, good understanding would be a good starting point 
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"Believe in your self, we are who we are - as it can feel like an endless task trying to be someone else!" Aspergers Parallel Planet web site - http://asplanet.info/index.php
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Zonder
Give me a minute, I'm thinking.
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Posts: 1168
Location: Sitting on my sofa.
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| asplanet wrote: | It does worry me that these conferences seem to be getting bigger and bigger and cost more and more and can be quite overpowering to the people who its trying to help.
I know it helps some people and thats great, but these events are already quite often over promoted and I have found being on the autism spectrum myself not vcery helpful in the fact that they are a little text book style, which I am not.. I do not need someone else to tell me how to feel and think, good understanding would be a good starting point |
I see, structure as much, if not more, than content. Fair enough.
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ouinon
chemical reaction
Joined: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 5340
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:24 am Post subject: |
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Cognitive Behavioural Therapy ( examining and changing beliefs so that they cause less anxiety or anger) had a massive effect on me.
It, ( 8 intensive weekend-courses over 2 years, regular support group meetings, support-partnerships by phone, and use of processing tools) , altered my behaviour to the extent that I thought that I could be happy being dependent on another person financially ( for housing, food, clothing, everything, ) for the first time since my early teens, and confident enough about my capacities ( particularly that of taking responsibilty for myself rather than blaming other people/influences/factors) to have a child.
This was a mistake!
But CBT persuaded me that this kind of transformation and flourishing was perfectly possible," if, note well, you do the "work"".
I did not realise then that these changes were dependent on my remaining involved in the organisation's activities. Without its support groups, partnerships, and boosting weekend courses, the processing tools just became another source of anxiety and mental oppression accusing me of not having the will to use them enough so that they worked.
I stayed stuck in this "framework" for 8 years altogether, and felt almost like I was vomiting something up when I finally rejected the ideas.
Their success depends on your having a good support network in place already, and/or a relatively peaceful, regular, routine-based existence, and/or money for lots of booster courses to keep you at it.
It implies that you can strengthen your will, that you have a will that you are free to strengthen, ( with another will from somewhere else, presumably     ), when all of you is programmed by your body and your environment. CBT gives you false hopes, and consequently false ideas of what you can do or tolerate.
As a direct result of the programme I believed that being dependent on someone for everything financially would not be a problem for me, and that motherhood was within my capacity.
Whereas in fact until I went on the programme I did not want children; I knew I wanted freedom from responsibility. And I would never have dreamed of relying on another individual financially. These were things entirely foreign to my nature.
I have become a mother, financially dependent on the father of my son, suffered serious post-natal depression, frequently experience anxiety and explosive rage, detest the father of my child, and have been stuck for almost 9 years now, ( though I feel the winds of change approaching).
Perhaps CBT is useful for the lucky, or privileged, or people still at home, but for adults out there already alone, and/or poor, and "unconnected" , they may worse be than useless, because create more illlusions/delusions/confusion.
Last edited by ouinon on Mon May 19, 2008 7:52 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Zonder
Give me a minute, I'm thinking.
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Posts: 1168
Location: Sitting on my sofa.
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| ouinon wrote: | Cognitive Behavioural Therapy had a massive effect on me.
It, ( 8 intensive weekend-courses over 2 years, regular support group meetings, support-partnerships by phone, and use of processing tools) , altered my behaviour to the extent that I thought that I could be happy being dependent on another person financially ( housing, food, clothing, everything, ) for the first time since my early teens, and confident enough about my capacities to have a child.
This was a mistake!
But CBT persuaded me that this kind of transformation and flourishing was perfectly possible," if, note well, you do the "work"".
I did not realise then that these changes were dependent on my remaining involved in the organisation's activities. Without its support groups, partnerships, and boosting weekend courses, the processing tools just became another source of anxiety and mental oppression accusing me of not having the will to use them enough so that they worked.
I stayed stuck on them, in this "framework" for 8 years altogether, and felt almost like I was vomiting something up when I finaly rejected the ideas.
They depend on your having a good support network in place already, and/or a relatively peaceful, regular, routine-based existence, and/or money or lots of booster courses to keep you at it.
It implies that you can strengthen your will, that you have a will that you are free, ( with another will from somewhere presumably), to strengthen, when all of you is programmed by your body and your environment. They give you false hopes, and consequently false ideas of what you can do or tolerate.
As a direct result of the programme I believed that being dependent on someone for everything financially would not be a problem for me, and that motherhood was within my capacitiy.
Whereas in fact until I went on the programme I did not want children; I knew I wanted freedom. And I would never have dreamed of relying on another individual financially. These were things entirely foreign to my nature.
I have become a mother, dependent on the father , and am stuck now. Though I feel the winds of change approaching.
Perhaps CBT is useful for the lucky, or privileged, or people still at home, but for adults out there already alone, and/or poor, and "unconnected" , they may worse than useless, because create more illlusions/delusions.
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I'm very sorry for your experience, ouinon, it is a terrible thing to feel that the rug has been pulled out from under you.
I have used CBT, but not in any kind of standardized, programed form. I do see a psychotherapist and learned that I tell myself negative things that aren't necessarily true and I have been changing what I tell myself. I'm not in a group, and thank God I don't have anyone trying to convince me to overextend myself or to get involved in things that I know won't work for me. On the level that I've experienced CBT I think it can work, but that's not to say that everyone who practices CBT is doing the right thing.
It is certainly frustrating and detrimental to have to try so many things to find something that works.
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ouinon
chemical reaction
Joined: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 5340
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| Zonder wrote: | | I don't have anyone trying to convince me to overextend myself or to get involved in things that I know won't work for me. |
Noone was trying to convince me of what I could do or not, except that, supposedly, with the CBT tools almost anything was possible.
They taught me the tools and provided support to use them for a while, and it was the tools themselves, and the cbt beliefs behind them, which made me think that I could do these things. The euphoria/confidence/lightness caused by the sudden if temporary lifting of old mental habits led me to think I w as transformed sufficiently to handle things that I had always avoided before.
Just wondering how much your decision to accept the job you knew wasn't right for you was a consequence of thinking CBT would help you through the pressures?
Last edited by ouinon on Mon May 19, 2008 7:53 am; edited 3 times in total |
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asplanet
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 11, 2007
Posts: 2269
Location: Cyberspace, New Zealand
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: |
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ouinon Sorry you have had such a hell of a time...
I so often hear of people on the autism spectrum having others thinking they know whats better for them, quite often just having to go to regularly visits and meeting is enough to give us anxiety...
A none aspie I know was trying to get a group started for young teenagers to be more social, I could not really see the point in this and like my son very happy on his computer etc.. even I use to give him a hard time, but now I understand myself I allow for these differences and still feel too many people not on the autism spectrum themselves want to change what they do not understand.
People often try and impose things on us that does not make sense to the average aspie... , I have spent a life time of not understanding, now I do and allow myself to be different I am so much happier, the best advice I have had yet is surround yourself with like minded people... so have given up trying to be what I am not or fit in and I really am the happiest I have ever been  and so are my boys..
All I am saying if you are not on the autism spectrum, especially if an nt parent, really listen to your child and try and see and understand from there point of view and allow for some of these differences.
_________________
"Believe in your self, we are who we are - as it can feel like an endless task trying to be someone else!" Aspergers Parallel Planet web site - http://asplanet.info/index.php
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Danielismyname
Zombies ate my NT
Joined: Apr 03, 2007
Posts: 8272
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:49 am Post subject: |
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I have one of those thermometer thingies around here. I had fear of my mother becoming ill around the top too (this seems to be a common fear amongst those with ASDs I was led to believe).
The purpose of the CBT with Asperger's/"HFA" is to help understand one's emotions, and try to intervene before they hit the fight or flight point. |
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asplanet
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 11, 2007
Posts: 2269
Location: Cyberspace, New Zealand
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:56 am Post subject: |
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The worse thing anyone could do for me is try to control and tell me how to act and the way I should feel, this just leads to frustration and anger for me anyway.
I also think quite often we are made to conform and not allowed to be who we are from birth, quite often its society in general that damages us and leaves use feeling confused.. not blaming anyway, as no one really totally understand autism and aspergers etc.. is quite new, so we all need to keep an open mind and step back from time to time and remember the way you may think is right, may not be for someone else and imposing your way may just make things worse...
I do not know all the answers, but good communication is a good start and accepting and allowing for other people differences.
_________________
"Believe in your self, we are who we are - as it can feel like an endless task trying to be someone else!" Aspergers Parallel Planet web site - http://asplanet.info/index.php
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ouinon
chemical reaction
Joined: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 5340
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 8:14 am Post subject: |
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I so like the quote by Alyson Bradley, in your signature, asplanet. That is exactly what cbt felt like. I could have spent 24 hours a day on it. And did in fact spend hours a day doing it when I could.
The trouble with cbt for me was that, aspie like, I took it to its logical conclusion, which was that if we really are free to choose our "truth", what is "true" for us, what "works for us", then our experience of reality depends on ( supposedly free) choices "we" ( whatever our "self" is), make. By the time this understanding ( which puts a great deal of pressure on a poorly developed executive function ), of the meaning of cbt material filtered down to my consciousness, I was already a mother.
It had been exhilarating to pick apart terms like "lazy" and realise that it is just a value-laden , negative judgement on people who don't do what you want them to do. And other terms I had been carrying around. But... they were in my body too, and I wasn't/am not about to pursue lengthy reichian/bioenergetics or eastern meditation etc things to change the whole of me. I'm me.
Who is it said " clinging to the wreckage" is better than striking out for land? I knew my bit of wreckage, I was familiar with its weaknesses. I shouldn't have abandoned it.
The trouble with asking aspies to examine their beliefs and choose new ones, which are supposed to be true at the same time, which make you feel less anxious or awful, is that aspies have a particular idea of truth. eg: working for money becomes obviously a gamble, because the belief in money being worth something at the end of the month is a "Don't know". You can't be sure.
Cbt did something weird to my sense of reality. I thought that being a mother would be easy. I had never thought that before.
In fact, funnily enough in this context, I remember thinking, when I emerged from its clutch on my mind, that it was something people like me , anxious and depressed and bipolar, etc ( i didn't know about AS then) should avoid because it would be dangerous for them. 
Last edited by ouinon on Mon May 19, 2008 11:28 am; edited 6 times in total |
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Danielismyname
Zombies ate my NT
Joined: Apr 03, 2007
Posts: 8272
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| asplanet wrote: | | ... so we all need to keep an open mind and step back from time to time and remember the way you may think is right, may not be for someone else and imposing your way may just make things worse... |
No one is forcing you to do anything. Everything in the medical field comes with risks and benefits. Thinking about treating chronic disorders/illnesses shouldn't be viewed through the same lens as needing to take insulin for diabetes, for example. Professor Attwood obviously has experience in helping individuals with anxiety cope with such, and if he has found a way to make it more comfortable for those with AS, cool. The help is there, the choices are yours.
I'll probably get the purveyors of CBT rolling their eyes at me (hello Louise), but sedatives are the only thing that work to manage my anxiety. I don't have an addictive personality, and I take sedatives when I'm going through a "rough" stage; this helps me. CBT may help others. |
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Zonder
Give me a minute, I'm thinking.
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Posts: 1168
Location: Sitting on my sofa.
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| ouinon wrote: | | Just wondering how much your decision to accept the job you knew wasn't right for you was a consequence of thinking CBT would help you through the pressures? |
Great question ouinon. I took the job because I knew that the institution and my co-workers would suffer more if I didn't than if I did. I didn't learn about CBT until after I accepted the position and I really feel that learning to check my internal monologue (i.e. stop telling myself that I am stupid or stuck in a situation I can't do anything about) has helped me to have the strength to extricate myself.
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 59
Posts: 13221
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| SotiCoto wrote: | Sounds like a freakish combination of social feelgood crap and political correctness gone wrong.
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It takes a skilled carpenter to build a barn, but any jackass can try to kick it down.
Merle
Last edited by sinsboldly on Mon May 19, 2008 12:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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0_equals_true
Genuine Charlatan
Joined: Apr 06, 2007
Age: 27
Posts: 6992
Location: London
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 11:21 am Post subject: |
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I have done CBT for anxiety. It is something that you can use once you have a clearly defined problem.
About trouble with emotions: For a while my emotions seem to be very blunted emotionally. It has probably always been like that to some extent, but now I just have anxiety and anxiety. I can't actually feel other emotions easily. Like if I'm to feel sad, I can sort of keep plugging it back in. But it is not like naturally feeling sad I don't think, especially as i have to consciously force myself. I can't hold emotions for more than an instant. it is a pretty futile exercise. I probably can't recognize them either. |
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krex
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Age: 46
Posts: 5090
Location: Village of the Damned
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for taking the time and effort to share this with us Helen. I could see how some of this information could be very useful for a child in a supportive environment, as you have provided for your sons. I don't know how well it would have worked in my home as to try and tell yourself positive messages while all around you are yelling negative ones...well, it's a lot of work. I was lucky, either because I am As for some other factor I don't understand...I have always had a strong sense of confidence. Even as a child, I was aware of many of my faults and just forgive myself as long as I know I have tried. I never thought I was a bad person, so the messages I needed to get rid of were the ones on the outside, not the inside.
As far as identifying emotions...I suck at that still. sad and mad are interchangeable for me. I recall a nurse once telling me that I had a right to feel anger, I think I probably made her a little crazy by my endless arguing that mad=bad. It was illogical and served to do no good for the one angry or the one you are angry with. (I thought I could be as good as Jesus Christ if only I tried. religion and literal aspies CAN be a dangerous mix).
Anyway, I did get some help with a form of CBT called RET but I doubt my therapist would see it as "healthy". I just learned to except that humans are an evolutionary mistake and totally insane. Once I let my self except this, everything made much more sense to me. I also told myself ..."you can always kill yourself tomorow if it gets to bad"...I'm still kicking but it was a relief to except that I was not stuck here but chose to be here. I suppose the experts would say that I'm not mentally healthy but I'm not as depressed as I was when I felt like I had to "be a certain way to be healthy"..like socializing more or doing my interests less.
I still would like to hear what the experts advise for how to get a job when your 44 and aspie and neither a tech genuis or a math wiz .
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ouinon
chemical reaction
Joined: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 5340
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| krex wrote: | | I just learned to except that humans are an evolutionary mistake and totally insane. Once I let my self except this, everything made much more sense to me . |
Wow, krex, I so totally identify with that. That is almost word for word exactly how I moved out of the CBT produced hole of self-accusing mind-police perfectionist BS.
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