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Zonder
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Age: 44
Posts: 794
Location: Great Lakes
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 Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Inventor wrote: | That line and the Cassandra Syndrome links are the only referances I found to adults in his entire body of work.
I find this strategy not helpful. Perhaps he has said something else, but this is what is floating around on the web. |
Who here owns and actually has read one of Attwood's books? When I first learned about AS someone loaned me a copy of Asperger's Syndrome: A Guide for Parents and Professionals and it seemed to me to be a reasonable overview. That was three years ago and I haven't reread it, so maybe my opinion of the details would be different now, but at least I can speak from having read one of his books.
Z |
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krex
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Age: 45
Posts: 5012
Location: Village of the Damned
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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When I was first learning about AS, I read several books by "experts", one of them was Atwoods..The only thing I can recall from them is that , like most psych and self help books, they could have fit all the relevant informatin into a few pages and saved me several hours or reading "fluff". I have learned more about AS from being on WP and reading several blogs and watching a few utube videos by autistics/AS . The main difference between the two is that the first is like learning about a beetle by looking at a picture of one and seeing how many legs they have, etc. The AS information is like disecting the beetle and examining ii beneath a microscope at the power of (some scientificy sound number ) then watching how it interacts with it's environment and how that environment alters its behavior . To take the bug out of it's environment...would be like some one saying...that spider must be OCD and have an inner ear infection because it keeps going in circles making "odd" patterns.
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Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 2840
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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Natives, A guide for Colonial Administrators and Missionaries
I do not care to live my life, and have the world's view of me, be from an outsider's view.
I have learned a lot on Wrong Planet, and "Pissup in a brewery", is the only Attwood quote I recall.
Temple Gradin gets quoted a lot.
The latest,Myths About Autism for NT's follows a long line of NT myths, which has caused us to be used as lab rats.
When the entire focus is on disabled children, and the rest is ignored, there is a reason.
Autism Speaks does it, the Mercury Mafia, and Tony Attwood.
None of them wants to deal with the numbers, the ones that say they are looking at the 5% they can make money off of.
It is not Science to ignore 95% of the data.
They study the worst examples, and project that NT Fact on to all of us.
My view is if you want to understand the defects, study the working models.
We had the same problems, more or less, and found a workaround.
Equal in other ways, we do show a differance in reported childhood conditions.
Zonder and I see the same glass, to him it is half full.
My world is based on absolutes. A 99% correct Math Problem, Machine Design, Software, is Wrong.
We call it Science.
Psychobble is a Religion. It is also an ever changing fad.
It is feeding off of the children, and avoiding the concept they will grow into adults.
The Attwood model seems to be treating defective children till they can be moved to long term defective care. 95% of us will never see assisted living, yet we are defined the exact same way.
Autism is not just a Medical Disability, I will not deny that does exist, yet most are only hindered by something they know, I am different, and seek to explain. "Well that explains my life", is common here.
When 19 out of 20 fit the Hindered Model, and nothing is done for them, not education, or self help guides, I see the effort being directed toward NT's making money.
Only Alex Plank, Founder of Wrong Planet, has shed light on thousands of lives, showing we are not just strange people, but a group with common strangeness.
Support Wrong Planet Awareness, click on the above link and keep the good work going!
Some do post here from the nut house, some from assisted living, some from their parents basement.
Most are working, paying rent or home owners, have family, got an education, and suffer the same problems as NT's in this world.
Besides the problems of being Autistic Adults, humans getting by the best they can, they have groups who ignore reality, go past three stray dogs, to kick an Autistic Personality.
So my issue is not Disibility, but an Adult Autistic Personallity Type, the most common outcome of all.
Not being disabled we should not be identified and judged by those standards. Or called frauds.
Adult Autistic Personality Type is the most common form of Autism by far, 95%, higher if you count Half-Aspies who only reach two of three criteria.
Now I will go back to drawing on the wall with feces. |
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Zonder
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Age: 44
Posts: 794
Location: Great Lakes
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Inventor wrote: | | Now I will go back to drawing on the wall with feces. |
Your basement or mine? I was thinking of doing the same after I finish mowing the lawn.
Z
edit: grammar
Last edited by Zonder on Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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2ukenkerl
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 20, 2007
Posts: 4957
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| krex wrote: | ...
most psych and self help books, they could have fit all the relevant informatin into a few pages and saved me several hours or reading "fluff". I have learned more about AS from being on WP and reading several blogs and watching a few utube videos by autistics/AS . |
I wish I could say you were nuts. Too many seem to think that you pay for volume and volume determines its worth. "scientology" has a LOT of odd words/meanings because its creator, sci-fi author L ron hubbard, was paid BY THE WORD!
What ever happened to Shakespeare's famous quote "Brevity Is The Soul Of Wit"?
| krex wrote: | | The main difference between the two is that the first is like learning about a beetle by looking at a picture of one and seeing how many legs they have, etc. The AS information is like disecting the beetle and examining ii beneath a microscope at the power of (some scientificy sound number ) then watching how it interacts with it's environment and how that environment alters its behavior . To take the bug out of it's environment...would be like some one saying...that spider must be OCD and have an inner ear infection because it keeps going in circles making "odd" patterns. |
I see what you are trying to say, but feel it is more like the NTs watching the beetle and coming up with generalities and dumb observations, and attributing all to INSTINCT. And the other is more like actually seeing the beetle yourself and communicating with it, and maybe even finding it LEARNED some things. |
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pluto
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 27, 2006
Age: 48
Posts: 1073
Location: Paisley,Scotland UK
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Zonder wrote: | | Inventor wrote: | That line and the Cassandra Syndrome links are the only referances I found to adults in his entire body of work.
I find this strategy not helpful. Perhaps he has said something else, but this is what is floating around on the web. |
Who here owns and actually has read one of Attwood's books? When I first learned about AS someone loaned me a copy of Asperger's Syndrome: A Guide for Parents and Professionals and it seemed to me to be a reasonable overview. That was three years ago and I haven't reread it, so maybe my opinion of the details would be different now, but at least I can speak from having read one of his books.
Z |
I've read that book and have a similar opinion to yourself Zonder.In fact I found
it more than a reasonable overview but
that's maybe because I was still in the
process of having my eyes opened.
Attwood may have made tongue-in-cheek remarks about us but he actually makes as many self-deprecating remarks about NTs,like
"Why don't they say what they mean?"
"Why do they care about social hierarchies
instead of treating everyone the same?"
He concludes the book by stating that those
with Asperger's "are a bright thread in the
tapestry of life.Our civilisation would be
extremely dull and sterile if we did not have
and treasure people with Asperger's Syndrome"
That doesn't come across to me as someone
who is a curebie or being patronising,but
someone who has been interacting with
Aspies,children and adults,for over 30 years.
I'd never claim he was correct in everything
he says,but the guy deserves a break !
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I have lost the will to be apathetic |
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Zonder
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Age: 44
Posts: 794
Location: Great Lakes
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the quotes, Pluto. I had forgotten the tone of the book, but I remembered it as being positive. I've read so much in the past three years, much of it abstracts of scientific studies, that I can't remember specifics unless I have my own copy.
I think you just gave Attwood a break!
Z |
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Bobcat
Snowy Owl
Joined: Dec 09, 2004
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't meet Tony Attwood in person yet. But I own and have read his 'Asperger's Syndrome: A Guide for Parents and Professionals' and his more recent book 'The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome'. I found them interesting. His website is informative with links to many other websites that I find helpful. He strikes me as a person who genuinely cares about the work he does with autistic people, in particular those with AS. I give him the benefit of the doubt, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, that he is sincere. Maybe I won't like him, if and when I meet him in person, but I respect the work he has done regardless. I don't think he's in it for the money.
Like Inventor, my childhood was plenty bad. I too was royally scapegoated. Now I know why. It wasn't because I was bad but because I was different. I look around. Humans all over the world discriminate against those who are different. OK. Not alone. We have our minds. We can think clearly, logically with effort. Life is complex. Always changing. You never have it all worked out because when you think you do, it changes on you. It's like a chess game to me. The position is unique. General rules are somewhat helpful. But nothing beats a concrete analysis of the position on the board. With the clock running. Make your move. What will you do? Study the situation. Come prepared. I don't have an extraordinary IQ, ordinary really. I just work hard at what I do and I found a niche that fits me right. Took a long time though...
CBT, other forms of psychotherapy, medication, meditation, religion, philosophy, exercise, try them all - with your eyes wide open, thinking for yourself all the while. Is there any substitute to thinking for yourself?
From what I gather, Tony Attwood and others help a lot of us. CBT has helped a lot of people. And some it doesn't help. Is there any subsitute for independent thinking? I don't think so. Some find medication helpful. I do. The question was raised - why do doctors recommend medications so quickly? Probably because they tend to work for a lot of people and work relatively quickly if they do. Without them I would have been toast.
I think there's a lot that parents and teachers can do to help a child with AS, from the perspective of love for the child in the best interest of the child. Goodness we've come an awful long way toward an understanding of child development. I was raised in the 1950's.
This isn't about the 'Red States' and the 'Blue States'. We're autistic. We thinking differently and a lot of us have sensory issues that make it darn tough getting through the day in society. I wish my nervous system were not so darn sensitive and particular but I live with it. And we miss a lot of nonverbal communication signals that others take for granted. No blame there. Just the way it is. We can learn to pick up on some of the signals we're missing so we can join in, as best we can. No one tries to change me. I won't let them. But I feel it is my duty to participate in the society I live in. I pay my taxes. I serve on juries. I do civic work and support charities I believe in. I'm thankful for people like Tony Attwood who have put themselves out there to describe people like us, strengths and weaknesses too.
My childhood was crap but kids have it better now, so much more is know about the condition and by golly there is a lot of love in this world despite the fog of greed and hate around us. |
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1885
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| ouinon wrote: | | Zonder wrote: | | This thread is interesting because those who either have used and HATE, or have used and LOVE CBT seem to balance each other. |
Who was it who hated CBT?
Are you referring to me in the "HATE" group?
It's interesting how CBT supporters ( both medium and strong) see criticism of it as inevitably irrational, as HATE for example. As if highly critical deconstruction and impassioned warning about the dangers of something must be "hate" just because one's own experience of the same thing is unremarkable, or apparently benign, ( as it seemed to be to me for several years) .
I don't think anyone on here expressed "hate" towards CBT. Maybe I'm forgetting someone, though! 
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According to Karl Popper people that rationalize away criticisms of a theory, especially if the rationalization is based on the theory itself (like Marxists dismissing critics as "capitalist sheep" and Freudians dismissing critics as simply expressing repressed neuroses), is a very common way the supporters of a theory protect it from falsification and thus make it unscientific.
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Zonder
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Age: 44
Posts: 794
Location: Great Lakes
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Odin wrote: | | According to Karl Popper people that rationalize away criticisms of a theory, especially if the rationalization is based on the theory itself (like Marxists dismissing critics as "capitalist sheep" and Freudians dismissing critics as simply expressing repressed neuroses), is a very common way the supporters of a theory protect it from falsification and thus make it unscientific. |
Hello Odin:
Maybe I'm trying to straddle a fence too much to try to reconcile that therapies work for some but not for others in what is a polarizing topic. I don't believe that I "rationalized away criticisms of a theory," and I'm not sure how what I said was using CBT to make a rationalization, other than there have been comments on both sides that give me reason to be cautious, but not dismissive of CBT. I am in full agreement that CBT does not work for everyone. The question is, "Does it work for some but what are the drawbacks?"
I have not stated that those for whom CBT doesn't work are irrational, nor did I intend to imply irrationality in the words that I chose. If I implied, through using the word "hate" that those who criticize CBT are irrational, I apologize and retract the word. I believe that my following post helped to clarify what I intended.
Z
| Zonder wrote: | I chose a strong word, because some really, really, don't like it, or have a strong aversion to it, or however one would want to categorize the not-in-favor end of the spectrum. LOVE is probably too strong of a word for many including myself. I personally don't LOVE CBT, I've used it and it has helped me. LOVE is just the opposite of the not-in-favor word.
So anyone has the ability to place themselves anywhere on the Not-In-Favor <-------X---> In-Favor Spectrum, not unlike the Autism Spectrum.
Z
X=I'm about here. |
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krex
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Age: 45
Posts: 5012
Location: Village of the Damned
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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For those interested...
I found this an interesting interview with Attwood....
http://www.abc.net.au/queensland/conversations/stories/s1904502.htm?queensland
I think one of the reason that many with AS like Tony Atwood is that "compared" to groups like Autism Speaks...he seems like a saint...a matter of relativity. It doesn't mean that we should avoid using critical and logical thinking in questioning some of his theories. To not "allow" dissension is like Americans who thought I was unpatriotic because I was against the invasion of Iraq.
_________________
Just because one plane is flying out of formation, doesnt mean the formation is on course....R.D.Lang
Visit my crafts store
http://www.etsy.com/shop.php?user_id=5412685 |
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Zonder
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Age: 44
Posts: 794
Location: Great Lakes
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| krex wrote: | For those interested...
I found this an interesting interview with Attwood....
http://www.abc.net.au/queensland/conversations/stories/s1904502.htm?queensland
I think one of the reason that many with AS like Tony Atwood is that "compared" to groups like Autism Speaks...he seems like a saint...a matter of relativity. It doesn't mean that we should avoid using critical and logical thinking in questioning some of his theories. To not "allow" dissension is like Americans who thought I was unpatriotic because I was against the invasion of Iraq. |
Yes, Krex, that interview comes across as tainted with stereotyping and condescension. Strange that the reporter seemed to be fishing for an ASD diagnosis for him.
Z |
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Anemone
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 18, 2008
Age: 43
Posts: 829
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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Long thread.
I was introduced to CBT and Beck's book in university, and to me it was two things.
1. It's a common sense way of dealing with small stuff. I figured out or picked up a lot of it growing up. But I think you need to be in the driver's seat for it to be safe.
2. I found people pushed it on me a lot with the assumption that if I had problems, I didn't know this stuff. But I already knew that CBT is no substitute for the police, a good lawyer, a human rights tribunal etc., when you're really a victim. So at the same time as I saw it as common sense for small stuff, I also saw it as a way of invalidating my experiences (because of how people used it).
I might also mention that sometimes the assumption that life isn't working because you're not trying hard enough/thinking the right way can be the assumption that needs challenging. It has been a real struggle for me to realize that I am disabled and need accomodation at work and in life. I'm beginning to realize I may need to add BlackBerry to the list after lawyer (I can't afford either, unfortunately). CBT thinking took me in the wrong direction on that one.
As far as Attwood goes, I respect that he's trying to teach kids common sense tools that may help them cope better, but I have had a look at his website and the articles there and my impression is that he is primarily concerned with kids in school. Kids in school need support, but what happens when they leave? I did fine in school, then fell flat on my face when I left and had to navigate in the real world. CBT didn't help me then. I really wish researchers would study adults before recommending treatments for children. Some stuff we can figure out for ourselves, other stuff we need help with. Do they even know which is which? |
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ouinon
chemical reaction
Joined: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 3548
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:44 am Post subject: |
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I found a very good description/explanation yesterday of what I have been trying to say in my posts on this thread:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness-based_Cognitive_Therapy
| wiki wrote: | | Mindfulness is a meditation practice from Buddhism which aims to help people identify their thoughts moment by moment, but without passing judgement on the thoughts. ... Traditional Cognitive Behaviour Therapy focusses on changing "negative" content of thoughts. ... In MBCT all thoughts are welcomed equally into the mind equally so one does not judge the thought, or the self for thinking the thought. |
CBT's "focus" on "changing negative content" is what I find deeply problematic/unsound, and have been trying to warn people of on this thread. Am very glad to see that a recognised alternative to it now exists.
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cosmiccat
Supporting Member
Joined: Apr 06, 2007
Posts: 1786
Location: In my body on my 66th trip around the sun
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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Quoting Bobcat:
| Quote: | | I don't have an extraordinary IQ, ordinary really. I just work hard at what I do and I found a niche that fits me right. Took a long time though... |
How refreshing. Someone not ashamed to admit that they have an ordinary IQ.  However, I'm not so sure I agree with you, at least, not by reading your post. I think everything you said was brilliantly stated.
| Quote: | This isn't about the 'Red States' and the 'Blue States'. We're autistic. We thinking differently and a lot of us have sensory issues that make it darn tough getting through the day in society. I wish my nervous system were not so darn sensitive and particular but I live with it. And we miss a lot of nonverbal communication signals that others take for granted. No blame there. Just the way it is. We can learn to pick up on some of the signals we're missing so we can join in, as best we can. No one tries to change me. I won't let them. But I feel it is my duty to participate in the society I live in. I pay my taxes. I serve on juries. I do civic work and support charities I believe in. I'm thankful for people like Tony Attwood who have put themselves out there to describe people like us, strengths and weaknesses too.
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Sometimes, quite often actually, I find myself wishing my nervous system were not so sensitive, but then I wonder, what price would I have to pay for it to be that way. What would I have to give up? I'm not willing to give up anything. It would be the mentality of "if you can't beat them join them" and I don't want to join them (society) to that degree. I want to take what I need from society and have the freedom to reject or decline what I don't need. The insensitivity of most people, or most of society and its institutions, toward others who do not think and feel and behave as they do is responsible for many of my problems, but ultimately, I am responsible for how I react to that type of insensitivity. I am very open to learning how to cope with misunderstanding and rejection and not to let it hurt me and/or de-rail me to the extent that it does. Building self-esteem is crucial, and it is never to late for that, but the earlier the better I would say. As I have said earlier, I don't have horror stories of being treated so badly by neuro-typical people that I have developed a hatred for them. I had good and loving parents and I had good teachers for the most part. I don't see a need or a reason to make it a me against them thing. But certainly, when looking at the situation metaphorically as if it were a battle of "us against them" would it be a fair fight if "they" had all the tools(weapons) and we had only our bare hands? Would we be able to survive without tools? I think that is what we need to develop in order to live better, healthier (less anxiety/depression/HBP/heart disease/digestive problems & so on) and more rewarding lives. Think independently, create your own tools (which most of us do) or accept the tools that others offer if they work for you. If you think you're doing a lousy job or you are too tired and stressed to cope without help, what kind of sense would it make to turn down good advice just because it came from someone who's brain was not like yours. That would be idiotic.
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