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pluto
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 27, 2006
Age: 48
Posts: 1073
Location: Paisley,Scotland UK
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 Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| Zonder wrote: | | pluto wrote: | | Inventor wrote: |
One of the things I noticed in the interview was, it used to be thought to have something to do with the mothers, Tony said, "Mothers have nothing to do with children, it is all the child's fault." There was no citation following, so I imagine he made that up because mothers pay him to put blame on the children.
It is wild guessing on my part, but it seems families do have something to do with children.
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Maybe I missed something but I can't see a reference in the interview that implies Tony Attwood puts any blame on the child itself.
This is what the interview actually says
"For years it was misunderstood and its appearance in a child was blamed on the mother. Tony Attwood has done more than anyone to clear up that profound misunderstanding and has taken us much closer to the truth of what Aspergers really is."
The only thing that tells us is that Asperger's is not something that can be explained as being entirely caused by the mother.Can't argue with that.
I'm with you however in agreeing parents do have an important role to play because children,and adults for that matter,can be affected by every word they read or hear.That's why I think it's also important to be careful when recalling what words have actually been said. |
Pluto,
What you write is related to a book by Judith Rich Harris called "The Nurture Assumption," about how genetics and a child's peer group influence a child's personality development as much if not more than the parent. Her book was pretty controversial when it came out. She writes about children in general (not ASD children). Something I realized when reading the book is that I think my parents had more influence on me than my peer group - I kind of ignored other children, and for that was considered to be very strange by peers. It could be an explanation for what is going on with ASD children having difficulties with other children.
Z
| Wikipedia wrote: | | In ["The Nurture Assumption," Judith Rich Harris] challenges the idea that the personality of adults is determined chiefly by the way they were raised by their parents. She looks at studies which claim to show the influence of the parental environment and claims that most fail to control for genetic influences. For example, if aggressive parents are more likely to have aggressive children, this is not necessarily evidence of parental example; it may also be that aggressiveness has been passed down through the genes. Harris also argues against the effects of birth order. The book looks outside the family and points at the peer group as an important shaper of the child's psyche. Harris argues that children identify with their classmates and playmates rather than their parents, modify their behavior to fit with the peer group, and this ultimately helps to form the character of the individual. |
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I can relate to that as well Zonder,because I think I lost touch with my peers when I was
around 11 years old.My parents moved house and in the circumstances for a time I had no
group of children around to influence my development.I tended to watch a lot of TV and was
propelled into a 'grown-up' environment before I was really grown-up enough to cope with
it. Maybe that's why I feel more childlike in middle age than I did when I was 11 
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ManErg
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Joined: Apr 05, 2006
Posts: 527
Location: Searching for diamonds in a sulphur mine
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Inventor wrote: | One of the things I noticed in the interview was, it used to be thought to have something to do with the mothers, Tony said, "Mothers have nothing to do with children, it is all the child's fault." There was no citation following, so I imagine he made that up because mothers pay him to put blame on the children.
It is wild guessing on my part, but it seems families do have something to do with children. |
You're straying into the area where political correctness clouds all judgement 
Yes, families have a lot to do with their children, however, most families behave in the way that 'society' deems acceptable. Most families in my part of the world are so occupied working trying to keep up with the payments on everything, few of us have any time, or energy, left for our families. It's as if we all know our children are being neglected, but so long as someone getting rich off it, we have to deal with the symptoms, not the cause.
Ideas change with every generation and it's common that what was normal in one is seen as unbelievable cruelty by the next.
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Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 2840
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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Tony Attwood has cleared up that myth?
As Zonder mentions parents of ASD children play an almost sole social role to the child.
Let Inventor clear up a myth, I was blamed for being me, and this caused my mother to hardly ever speak to me, except in anger. Everything I did or said was wrong.
So I read Attwood as saying my mother should be put up for sainthood.
More human nature, someone is to blame.
The focus of Attwood's clinic is not parent/child communication, but showing the child is solely at fault, and must be treated with CBT, drugs, to control their wrong behavior.
It is a formal version of everything you do or say is wrong, at a semi-professional level. Mostly Tony treats parental guilt.
I went from being yelled into silence, to being sent to school and yelled at for not responding.
If Tony had been around I could have been zombied on drugs too.
CBT is the ultimate evil, teaching the child to accept being mistreated.
My homelife was hell, then school made sure I had no time off, the hell team worked me full time till I was fourteen, when I went to work. By fifteen I was eating regularly, bought my first Harris tweed, a motorcycle, got a better job, came in late and left early.
My mother called the police because I was not living up to her expectations. While other children were still in highschool, I was working two jobs, dressing like a college professor, and eating out.
Stupid is the word my mother used most, always in a harsh tone. It is what she told the neighbors, my teachers, and it explained everything. At fifteen I was making her look bad, it got worse when I got a job working IBM punch card computers, and signed up for university classes.
She and my teachers had agreed I was uneducatable, the school psychologist agreed, so I was making a lot of people look bad, and had to be punished for it.
I was an A student at the University, and was told I got them by lying and cheating.
I was assigned the role of retard, everything done to me was my fault, and I was a double curse, for I did not live up to expectations as an adult.
My mother tried, she called up where I worked, the university, the parents of the girl I was dating, and told them the "Truth ' about me. When that did not work she used her fists.
I left, moved to New York and was arrested by the FBI for draft evasion. They had information from someone very close to me, and were a bit embarassed that I was current with my draft board. The good was, I could never be drafted after that. The bad was I had been arrested for a Federal Felony.
So yes, I can see Tony's point that mothers are not to blame for anything, they are all saints.
Adult outcomes should be restricted, for after twenty years of parents, teachers, psychologists, saying were are the problem, having a job, being self supporting, getting an education, enjoying life, is just so wrong, and makes all those good people look bad.
Adult outcomes should justify the treatment we got as childern.
Perhaps autism should be made a felony, and we should be barred from education and employment.
It would make a lot of parents, teachers, psychologists, happy.
Under the current system we can only be ignored, given other labels, for there are no adult autistics. Not behaving like Rainman is the evidence.
That still leaves 5,000,000 of us. Most are living, working, home owners, raising children, and not knowing the "Truth" are living a lie.
We excaped, the young are being captured, given drugs till they fit the Rainman stereotype.
The effort seems directed at seeing that Autistics do not develop into intelligent adults with some quirks, and some Super Powers.
The public debate has been dominated by those who deny children grow into adults. The perception is childhood Autism leads to a life not worth living, locked in an institution. Experts, such as The Mercury Mafia, Autism Speaks, Oprah, Tony Attwood, and others, all claim to speak for us, as we are hopeless retards. All of them speak of the children, "What about the children?," and ignore adults.
In Medical terms, real Doctors who went to Medical School, Autism is a developmental delay, we do grow out of most of it, and will become fairly normal people with a few quirks. Only massive intervention by self elected experts can cause other problems that will prevent it.
The child must be taken at a young age, convinced they are the problem, and should apoligise, learn CBT, and take drugs that will prevent mental development. It is the only way they can be made to fit the Rainman profile as adults.
All NT's are Curebes, they cannot help but think if we could only be like them.
We have a system, and there is no place for several types, such as those who are on another development path, those with high IQ's, those with special talents and interests, and most of all, those who avoid social interaction.
I see this modern NTcentric treatment of the young as destructive to their adult selves, which they will have to live with, not parents, teachers, psychologists, not for childhood, but for fifty years or so on their own.
We are on our own here. Our existance is denied. We are labled to the extent that massive childhood intervention is practiced, justified, by people who the highest qualifications are teaching Psych courses at a college, and most are talk show hosts, professional fund raisers, or self elected heads of the world empire of Autistics, and college students.
None of them have the view point of adult, Autism would explain some of my quirks, and I have a business to run, a job to do, people who depend on me for support, more knowledge and understanding would help, I thought it was just me, a bit strange, but this fits, now what is the work around for these common to us problems?
I have no problem with being different. That part is common knowledge. Finding others who were the same different on Wrong Planet was one of the big events of my life.
After a year here, I see that most are somewhat functional adults, and there are no services for them. Wrong Planet grows because it fills a void in our lives. This is the early days of self awareness, as we compare notes, of family, treatments, and outcomes.
I do not think the current treatment of children is in their best interest.
I think all Autism organizations are self serving, and harmful to children.
I see 5,000,000 adults who are ignored and shut out of the dialog, except on Wrong Planet.
I cannot say I outgrew it all, just the adult form is better than my childhood.
I think everyone should have a better childhood, for it seems to make better people.
Education is good, but for various reasons, many of us are self educated.
The good I see in adults is they are lifetime learners. They will self educate, and are not C- and pass, but A+ and master a subject.
I was not trained in machines or computers, I was hired to fix them, because I could. I have some mental skill that shows me the problem, and for what I got paid, it must be rare.
Others report equal skills in music, Math, Science, and I find us a gifted lot.
We do not have 5,000,000 in jail for no reason, this is a hostile world. Many are looking for an easy mark, and we are cast as Rainman.
We have less social support, not having souls and all, some great talents, we do survive, and we are the target of crime and fraud. We have a right to remain silent, anything we say will be taken down twisted, and used against us.
I tried to be a good child, student, it did not work out. I was a good worker, and later business owner. I have had my share of problems and more. I have tried to be social, and do get along well with the international set, just not Americans.
I have traveled and lived in other cultures, life was good.
I look and think younger than my years, have never lost the sense of childlike wonder, nor my love of learning. My survival in America is based on social isolation, work, and self directed study.
While others my age are picking grave sites, I am finishiing my book, book one of a seven volume story, filing more Patents, and looking forward to becoming involved in some new projects. Dogs like me.
Looking at people older than myself some old children stand out, they are still having a great time, doing things, and enjoying life. Our kind finishes well.
Sorry about all the guys who died at 43, they were sprinters running in a marathon. We wander through life looking at everything, and take twice as long to reach the end.
We are a very different people in many ways.
I feel so left out as guys my age talk about their third heart attack, triple bypass, and I have not even had my first, and at 61, might be too old to ever have one.
They have retirement plans, I have twenty years of work laid out. They will retire, then most will die in eighteen months. I just feel like I do not fit in.
No one but us could understand or care about us. After the university, we do not exist.
Our survival has always been a personal thing. The very idea that there are other adults like myself is new. That I like them was upsetting, but I am getting used to it.
We own the market in adult ASD's. There is no money in it yet, but there can be benefits. It is all new, but sharing stories about what worked for me, how I overcame the NTocracy with my Super Powers, will give us some base to work from.
Self defined, we may come up with a better vision for those children to follow when their perscriptions run out, and they are no longer worked for state funded treatment. When treatment ends they still have fifty or sixty years to go. We are the only body of knowledge about what they will face, and how to work around those problems.
Those who fail as we did, those who will not become Rainman, with a bed in an institution, will be faced with work, marriage, children, homes, and other horrors of life. We can at least let them know they are not alone.
We must become like other people, "we are right, and everyone else is wrong," as I gather it. Social groups do have power, I do not know why.
The Imaginary Friends Union will help us in our lives, and mark a trail for the young to follow. |
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ManErg
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Location: Searching for diamonds in a sulphur mine
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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That's a great post, Inventor. I have a lot of respect for you and your words.
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ouinon
chemical reaction
Joined: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 3548
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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I have just realised, in the last week or so, that the reason that I have been so critical of CBT is because until recently I couldn't handle what using it, ( taking it to its logical conclusion, to its bitter end ), taught me, which is that we do not have free will, that we are determined by the universe, something which seemed like a nightmare when I didn't believe in god, but now that I believe in god, ( since the spring ), has slowly been dawning on me is a wonderful thing.
Noone has more power over their lives than I have over mine, and noone, even the saddest, most laughed at, has less. We are all equally determined by the universe. I love this.
Belief in free will is a gift, and if followed rigorously/uncompromisingly, with devotion, with complete conviction, teaches us that nothing about us is free of the universe/god.
I was negative about CBT for the last three years because I had crucified "belief in ( my own individual/personal ) free will" but not yet discovered/decided on belief in god/the oneness of the universe, and its total power over me. Now I see. "Where there were two men now there is one", sort of thing.  ( Luke. some verse or other.)
So, I wanted to say that I was wrong. CBT can be a good thing, encouraging/supporting/enabling as it does, as far as it can, belief in personal free will, which if followed to its bitter end, and beyond, returns as/together with the will of the universe/god which determines us all, and in that light no longer feels like being in the grip of a monstrous machine.
I think that much of the bitterness and resentment I felt about CBT was because taken logically the fundamental principles do promise great power, total freedom, and yet I realised bit by bit, painfully, by following it, that it couldn't be true, that we are determined by our bodies, conditioning, genes, chemicals etc, and, like Judas, felt angry, betrayed, that it, ( free will/Jesus ) did not do the things that I had thought it would. So I killed it, and, as Krex said at some point, felt much better for thinking the world was a total mess, life was sh**, that humans were an infection, etc. For three years.
Until I gave up trying to do it all alone, and "chose" with what was left of free will, to believe in god, and ... WOW!
So, I'm sorry for dissing CBT. If not done for profit, but only in return for expenses, or for free, it is/may be a very good thing.
And have been remembering how AS-friendly the CBT course that I went on was, especially the voluntary work on teams that I did a couple of times afterwards. Structure, purpose, clarity, direction, honesty, etc. Thinking of doing some again.
The only thing is, is everyone who follows the fundamental tenets of CBT through to their logical conclusion, ( an AS tendency ), going to have to go through the same process, or can the understanding, ( about the universe etc ), be achieved less painfully/bitterly? 
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Last edited by ouinon on Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:38 am; edited 3 times in total |
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ouinon
chemical reaction
Joined: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 3548
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe that's where the buddhist approach comes in/would be different, because its process of mindfulness does not involve deciding that any beliefs/thoughts are negative, does not involve fighting to achieve things with a "free will", but learning to notice, and then simply ignore, all desires/thoughts etc as so much background noise, and be aware of what is true behind that, which is that are one with the universe.
I never have done any meditation though, and so the ( predominantly ) christian path of the west, ( the part of the universe that I was most exposed to) appears to have formed my journey for me.
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millie
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Joined: Oct 26, 2008
Posts: 317
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Attwood does not say parents are not to blame or the children with Aspergers ARE to blame. what he refutes in terms of the nurture theory in relation to ASD is Bruno Bettelheim' writings which in the 50's - placed all the difficulties being experiencd by the ASD child as a result of poor parenting and PRIMARILY POOR MOTHERING.
NOWHERE does Attwood say that AS people should be cured. The strategies at his clinincs "Mind and HEarts" in BRisbane and on the GOld COast in Australia are not about using CBT to cure AS. it is about offering strategies that help AS people to bridge the gap between self and world and not feel so isolated WITHOUT having to turn their back on the As that partially makes them who they are. He actually advocates rejoicing in one;s As and maintains we are incredible people.
The other point to make about CBT -- I have done a lot of CBT. at 46 i have implemented CBT stretegies and ways of thinking that have helped me so that i am not homeless, able to manage paying bills, do not end up in prison or on the streets again and am fairly happy these day (and these are all part of my experices as a young woman with AS, and I also came top in subjects at school and uni...an A student. I am tha epitome of AS strengths and deficits!!!) . But the thing about CBT is that it is very , very difficult for us and exhausting to learn new ways of thinking - moreso than NT people. It is very. very tiring to learn these new ways. hard and difficult.. iam glad i was exposed to CBT ten years ago however. I have employed CBT as a strategy and i am still AS through and through. ALl it means is that i now have a capacity to interract better in certain situaions and it has made things a lot better for me. I am by no means a curebie. yuck. I love having AS inspute of the difficulty, and today i actually have a life that allows me to pursue my special interest with more fervour and structure. I am also a mum and i have a partner - two interactions that i can find absolutely wonderful but UTTERLY exhausting within about 5 minutes!
read Bettelheim is you want to find out how is was for families with dxed ASD kids in the 50s' (Temple grandin being one of them. in fact, it is very insightful to hear her mum talk about this.) Attwood in his discussion of the nature -nurtures issues is always talking about it in relaion to ASD and the Bettelheim approach of manyyears ago which was hell for families.
I think it is very silly to imply Attwood "blames' kids for having AS. he has been a grea advocate.
ANd, abuse and AS within the same family can co-exist. Nowhere does Attwood say it can't. |
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ouinon
chemical reaction
Joined: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 3548
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| ouinon wrote: | | Maybe that's where the buddhist approach would be different, [ better ? ]. |
Less painful.
Perhaps I will learn meditation techniques, and teach them to my AS/PDD son instead of CBT, ( which he is otherwise likely to pursue to its logical, bitter end just like I did ).
On the other hand the CBT/christian journey does lead to total gratitude for belief in god , and the psychodrama, ( belief in free will given to us which then dies to show us that we are entirely determined by the universe, etc), is deeply embedded in our cultural conditioning, so may come more "naturally" to him, as it did to me.
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Last edited by ouinon on Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:42 am; edited 3 times in total |
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krex
Phoenix
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Age: 45
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Location: Village of the Damned
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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I know religion is a sensitive topic for many but I would like to mention my own experience as a child in a very religious family, (Christian Scientist).
I loved Jesus. He seemed like such a nice guy and I thought I and everyone else "should" act and think like him. I am very, very literal and this was were the problem lay for me and Christianity . There were very specific rules of "right and wrong". People didn't act like Jesus...even the one's who went to church and said they "believed"...they were still mean . I would have "bad thoughts about people" and suffer horrible guilt that I couldn't measure up to Jesse's teachings. After all, God knows not just your actions(I could be nice) but also your thoughts and heart...(I was often mad at people for not being good enough...judgemental, which I knew was wrong) .
I found the whole thing frustrating and confusing and eventually left the church . I consider myself an indifferent agnostic and a spiritual existentialist...There may or may not be a higher power but it is irrelevant to how I live my life . I have chosen to believe that I will be the best person I can be in following my personal ethics . I can see bits of "Godness" in animals and rocks and that fills me with Awe more then sitting in a church pew . Ethics and Awe are all I need of a sense of spirituality .
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ouinon
chemical reaction
Joined: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 3548
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:31 am Post subject: |
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| krex wrote: | | Christianity . There were very specific rules of "right and wrong". I would have "bad thoughts about people" and suffer horrible guilt that I couldn't measure up to Jesse's teachings. I found the whole thing frustrating and confusing and eventually left the church. |
This is exactly what CBT increasingly felt like to me, after a honeymoon period of 18 months or so.
It was only when I realised, recently, ( almost a year after deciding to believe in god ), that free will is something that you believe in/a belief, ( not really real ), that I understood that the christian psychodrama, ( the gospel story ), is a parable about the gift of belief in free will, leading, if followed far enough, to its death and return as the will of the universe/god.
And CBT, which teaches one to believe in, and to use, the "half-real" personal "free will", seems potentially positive again, especially the "noticing" aspect of it.
But, for anyone who asks questions, ( is AS for instance ) , the CBT approach is only free of Old Testament style pressures after have realised that are already in the hands of god/the universe, determined by god/the universe, ( and/or for a while at the beginning ), otherwise it is like your church experience, majorly oppressive.
Just thinking that this may explain why a significant minority of people who go on CBT style trainings end up seriously/suicidally depressed. Because anyone, ( AS-like for instance ), who thinks things through logically, all the way through, will be confronted by the paradox/conundrum, " What determines the will?", which is enough to send a computer into fits.
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Last edited by ouinon on Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ouinon
chemical reaction
Joined: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 3548
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| ouinon wrote: | | Just thinking that this may explain why a significant minority of people who go on CBT style trainings end up seriously depressed. Because anyone, ( AS-like for instance ), who thinks things through logically, all the way through, will be confronted by the paradox/conundrum, " What determines the will?", which is enough to send a computer into fits. |
And the fact that many/most CBT based courses succeed ( on the whole ) in teaching "belief in free will" would also explain the evangelical fervour of so many of the students of such programmes; they have experienced something similar, or even identical, to what fired up the early christians.
Probably why it is so important that such courses charge little, or no, more than what is needed to cover their expenses.
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