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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1966
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 Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 6:54 am Post subject: Re: Too sexy for my Burka |
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What really is Hijab anyways?
No one really knows what the dress code was in the 7th century. I would consider it foolish to assume that the dress for muslims remained unchanged like Egyptian art throughout the centuries. There is nothing that I've read in the Qur'an that explicitly orders muslim women to wear Hijab. I'm no Islamic scholar but from what my eyes see they show me that the Hijab was meant for the wives of Muhammad, which makes sense. To claim "It is Sunnah" or "It's in Authentic Hadith", fardh, etc. is not convincing since there is no way of knowing if it's authentic or even Sunnah. Not to mention that in my opinion it is ridiculous to source an outside book as authority when you've already got a "perfect" one to begin with. That to me just says "Well, Allah didn't intend Qur'an to be authoritative and final."
005.099
YUSUFALI: The Messenger's duty is but to proclaim (the message). But Allah knoweth all that ye reveal and ye conceal.
PICKTHAL: The duty of the messenger is only to convey (the message). Allah knoweth what ye proclaim and what ye hide.
SHAKIR: Nothing is (incumbent) on the Messenger but to deliver (the message), and Allah knows what you do openly and what you hide.
043.003
YUSUFALI: We have made it a Qur'an in Arabic, that ye may be able to understand (and learn wisdom).
PICKTHAL: Lo! We have appointed it a Lecture, in Arabic that haply ye may understand.
SHAKIR: Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you may understand.
Why a need for hadith?
Here is the clearest commandment:
033.058
YUSUFALI: And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin.
PICKTHAL: And those who malign believing men and believing women undeservedly, they bear the guilt of slander and manifest sin.
SHAKIR: And those who speak evil things of the believing men and the believing women without their having earned (it), they are guilty indeed of a false accusation and a manifest sin.
033.059
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Now, what I have a problem is this: If a woman is not known to be a believer, does that mean she is free to be raped? or that you can look upon her with lust?
OF COURSE NOT!!
024.030
YUSUFALI: Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.
PICKTHAL: Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! Allah is aware of what they do.
SHAKIR: Say to the believing men that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts; that is purer for them; surely Allah is Aware of what they do.
I really don't get the argument I usually hear. Must be because I'm not what they'd consider Muslim.
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Khan_Sama
Sea Gull
Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Age: 19
Posts: 221
Location: India
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 8:30 am Post subject: |
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oscuria, I too don't follow the hadith. There's a lot of controvery around the hadith, in every Islamic school of thought. I personally don't follow any particular sect, I follow my own interpretation of Islam. For example, I pray in a sunni manner, accepted the sunni view of the caliphate (essentially democratic), accepted the shi'a view of nikah mutah (temporary marriage), accepted many Ibadi views, etc. The hadith is basically a compilation of works by the companions of the prophet, and centre around his lifestyle. The authenticity of the hadith can't be guarenteed however, it is not at all necessary to follow them, and thus, I have rejected them.
Basically, every Muslim understands that the basic requirement for the hijab is as follows - cover the whole body, except face and hands. The burka is actually a Zoroastrian dress, it was adopted after the conquest of the Sassanid Empire, as Muslims considered it ideal for guarding a woman's modesty. This is the pre-Islamic clothing of Arab women in the Hejaz:
After conversion to Islam, Arab women continued to wear the same clothes, wrapping their upper torso, hands, and head with a cloth. |
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Sand
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1529
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: |
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The rights of women to be equal in society have been a long time coming in all societies and although strict Muslim societies are, in general, tougher on women than most, the spread in compensation for work is still quite evident in the most liberal of societies even today.
Voting for women came very late in the USA after a hard struggle and the general lack of powerful women in US politics is in stark contrast to other western countries. And even the basic rights to own and control property came about only in the last century.
But the right to dress as one pleases strikes me as rather peculiar. Are there any Muslim proclamations as to how men should dress? The recent statement by a Muslim holy man that an exposed woman is like raw meat for flies has strange implications for Muslim men. Does it mean that Muslim men are expected to have so little control over their emotions that they have the brains of flies? The easy and horrible violence in the area might seem to indicate this but I have known and befriended Muslims and they seem to be decent human beings who would be highly insulted by this comparison. |
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phil777
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: May 21, 2008
Age: 21
Posts: 70
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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From what i read someplace i can't remember, the burqa and most types of veil are actually pretty recent in islam religion, it's been implemented so early as 1900 i think, and it was mostly because some of the princes at that time had very lavishly clothed women, which in turn tempted other women to look gorgeous as they did. Hence how it is today. 
Also, doing a work on Pakistan for this session, it's curious how people in some islam countries vie for democraty but can't seem to reach it... interesting fact also (more or less known from the average person) is that apparently talibans are using the tribal zones near the Afghanistan border to launch their attacks, and since the Pakistan army has left the place, they've taken over, recruiting people to their organization. Amusing still, how the US government wants to keep Musharraf in place even though he's doing nothing in those zones. I'd have expected somewhat better from the USAs who prone to be the leaders of "democracy" to support an old autoritarian general instead of the two parties that are trying to have relatively democratic procedures. |
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Mc_Jeff
Pileated woodpecker
Joined: Jul 30, 2007
Posts: 190
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| We could begin with making wanting Sharia Law a thought crime. |
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1884
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: Too sexy for my Burka |
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| Khan_Sama wrote: | | Hah, I totally forgot. Mother Mary wears the hijab. When Christian nuns cover themselves, they're "practicing their religion", but when Muslim women do it, they're "being oppressed". |
Nuns agreed to wear veils as part of becoming a monastic. Most Muslim women don't have a choice unless they want to be shunned, be a victim of community-sanctioned rape, or be murdered in an "honor killing."
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MissConstrue
Aquarius
Joined: Feb 05, 2008
Age: 26
Posts: 10862
Location: Anywhere but HERE!
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| MissConstrue wrote: | Next thing you know...hijabs/scarfs will be a new fashion trend in the western culture. 
Except burkas aka niqabs would be pretty uncomfortable to wear I think. Plus how would you know who's who. Obama might be in one of those. 
Hijabs/Scarfs
Niqab/Burkas....duh
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I just showed you unless you're trying to figure out how it was looked back then or where it derived from. 
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6thSin:Envy |
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iamnotaparakeet
Venator draconum
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Age: 22
Posts: 10843
Location: Insula internicivum draconum.
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Too sexy for my Burka |
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| Odin wrote: | | Khan_Sama wrote: | | Hah, I totally forgot. Mother Mary wears the hijab. When Christian nuns cover themselves, they're "practicing their religion", but when Muslim women do it, they're "being oppressed". |
Nuns agreed to wear veils as part of becoming a monastic. Most Muslim women don't have a choice unless they want to be shunned, be a victim of community-sanctioned rape, or be murdered in an "honor killing." |
Monks also cover themselves, or used to at least.
Some of the American-born Somali girls aren't required to wear such uniforms though. Some.
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1966
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Sand wrote: |
But the right to dress as one pleases strikes me as rather peculiar. Are there any Muslim proclamations as to how men should dress? The recent statement by a Muslim holy man that an exposed woman is like raw meat for flies has strange implications for Muslim men. Does it mean that Muslim men are expected to have so little control over their emotions that they have the brains of flies? The easy and horrible violence in the area might seem to indicate this but I have known and befriended Muslims and they seem to be decent human beings who would be highly insulted by this comparison. |
The act of modesty is incumbent on Muslims.
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 1966
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| MissConstrue wrote: |
I just showed you unless you're trying to figure out how it was looked back then or where it derived from. |
If you are referring to me, then no. Hijab means veil as in curtain.
Verse 33:058 uses Khimar instead of Hijab. Khimar could be seen in the image that Khan posted. Today however, khimar is assumed to be hijab.
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Khan_Sama
Sea Gull
Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Age: 19
Posts: 221
Location: India
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Too sexy for my Burka |
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| Odin wrote: | | Khan_Sama wrote: | | Hah, I totally forgot. Mother Mary wears the hijab. When Christian nuns cover themselves, they're "practicing their religion", but when Muslim women do it, they're "being oppressed". |
Nuns agreed to wear veils as part of becoming a monastic. Most Muslim women don't have a choice unless they want to be shunned, be a victim of community-sanctioned rape, or be murdered in an "honor killing." |
No, wrong. Such incidents occur once in a blue moon. Many Muslim women don't wear a hijab. Most women in my family don't wear one. No woman in my family has been shunned, raped, or murdered. Btw, rape in Islam = attack on Allah & the prophet. It's one of the worst sins. It's very easy to claim that these incidents are common in Muslim countries, when recently in Texas, hundreds of young children were forced to get married to Mormons of a breakaway church and were sexually abused . Face it, sexual abuse cases are extremely high in western countries, that's an undeniable fact. Murder too.
The only countries that enforce hijab by law are Saudi Arabia and Iran. In Saudi Arabia, lashes are given as punishment, in Iran, most women get off with a warning for the first offence, and fined for a second offence. |
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MissConstrue
Aquarius
Joined: Feb 05, 2008
Age: 26
Posts: 10862
Location: Anywhere but HERE!
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Them damn women!! 
Why do they cause so much trouble for everybody around the world with with their clothing?
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6thSin:Envy |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7392
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Anyone who is interested in philosophy, the of meaning of life, and answers to our hardest questions, I suggest you check out the free, online mp3 archive of Ravi Zacharias at www.rzim.org. |
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iamnotaparakeet
Venator draconum
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Age: 22
Posts: 10843
Location: Insula internicivum draconum.
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| MissConstrue wrote: | Them damn women!!
Why do they cause so much trouble for everybody around the world with with their clothing? |
The opposite is being without clothing... 
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MissConstrue
Aquarius
Joined: Feb 05, 2008
Age: 26
Posts: 10862
Location: Anywhere but HERE!
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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Yes....one term that comes to mind is oxymoron. 
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6thSin:Envy |
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