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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7895
Location: Dallas, Texas
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 Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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_________________
I shaved off my goatee so that my wife could read my facial expressions better. She feels much happier and closer to me now. (Just thought I'd share this advice for any other bearded members.) |
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Griff
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 17, 2006
Posts: 1615
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| SleepyDragon wrote: | | Griff wrote: | | ... some men find it incredibly embarrassing to lose their capacity for coherent speech due to some ho's exploitation of their vulnerability. |
Sexist harassment is ugly (or as the Buddhists might say, "unskilful") no matter which gender is perpetrating it. It's drawing a long bow to call ^this^ "rape", though, for mine. |
Men are psychologically vulnerable, and there are many "date rape" situations in which the male is as much a victim as his partner. It is nonsense to assume that you have to lay your hands on a person in order to violate him or her. It's a murky issue, but it is one that needs to be addressed. I am very tired of living in society in which men are made out to be either ogres or morons. Misandry is every bit as evil as misogyny.
Furthermore, I am sickened that some nonexistent "glass ceiling" is held responsible for men's advantages in such fields as engineering. We don't purposely exclude women from entering the field, but every single time the subject comes up, I hear so-called "feminists" whining and moaning about the "glass ceiling." I sympathize with their cause where it is meaningful, but it is both ridiculous and reprehensible to blame some conspiracy on something that is more than likely rooted in biology. Should I blame feminists for the greater prevalence of autism in males? Frankly, I think that modern Western feminists are a bunch of ignorant bitties who want to hold some made-up conspiracy responsible for every pissy problem in their entire lives. Rest assured, I support their cause whole-heartedly, but I find them embarrassing.
Once again, though, problems related to sexual and social misconduct are best remedied by relatively rigid egalitarianism. It is time-tested, and it has become one of our most important sociological tools. Unfortunately, social conservatives are too stupid to realize the true importance of this tool. |
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Griff
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 17, 2006
Posts: 1615
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Khan_Sama wrote: | | Griff wrote: | | The burka is ridiculous, though, and it's counter-productive. Social liberalization and egalitarian compassion is the only strategy that has consistently proven itself effective in reducing sexual mischeif and violent crime. Oppressive taboo is like gasoline on the fire. |
The hijab can only prevent sexual abuse or harassment to a certain extent, its main purpose is for men to treat a woman for who she is - a human being. |
Nonsense. Countries in which women are encouraged to behave with sexual independence are notorious for having very low crime rates and very low rates of rape and sexual abuse. The burqa may be useful if its design had this end in mind, but it will never be useful as long as it is enforced by men. If women are concealing their sexual features in order to prevent men from perceiving them as sex objects, then it must not be used as a symbol of sexual submission. It must be initiated and supported by the women themselves for its intent to be fulfilled. It must be used as a symbol of independence if it is to succeed.
| Quote: | | You say that social liberalization and egalitarian compassion is the only strategy to combat violence against women. If so, why is rape more common than pickpocketing in the US, even though only approximately 1 in 10 cases of rape are reported to the police? |
The US is actually a relatively conservative country. Furthermore, women are still treated very much as sex objects in American culture. Statistically, though, more socially liberal states in the US have much lower crime rates in spite of urbanization usually resulting in elevated crime rates. Furthermore, sexual attitudes in the Scandinavian countries actually hold independent-minded women to be highly attractive, and these countries have very low rates of crime, drug abuse, and rape. It works. It's just underappreciated or misunderstood in the US.
http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_for_rap_percap-crime-forcible-rape-per-capita
Egalitarianism is a method of maintaining moral order, not an encouragement for people to go about behaving willy-nilly as they please. It is one of the more strict aspects of liberalism, and it will never be appreciated in a society that is at heart morally depraved.
Furthermore, egalitarianism, which is the more moralistic aspect of liberalism, is heavily ridiculed and quite hated in the US. It is slurred as "political correctness," and denunciations of it are very popular in political slogans. This needs to change. We can't just feed heavily on the more "liberating" aspects of liberalism and expect it to make our society wonderful and pretty. We need to run a tighter ship.
| Quote: | | Here in India, a woman is raped every hour (or so the statistics pointed out half a decade ago, it may have doubled or tripled by now). The rate of sexual violence is far lesser in Muslim countries. |
India still practices the sodomy laws imposed upon them during British colonialism, and they are hardly an egalitarian country. To this day, they haven't truly broken from their history of casteism. Sorry, but you can't just cherry-pick the worst examples of Western Democracy and hold them up against the better countries in which the hijab is practiced. If you cannot hold a straightforward discussion, do not bother me. I do not have patience for the tedious blindness of a human being who has sold his soul for his misguided beliefs.
| Quote: | | Prevention is better than a cure. |
Treating the symptoms just doesn't work. A change in attitudes is required. Men must embrace practical and independent-minded women. It is a modern reflection of the Puritanical affection for chastity and simplicity. In a way, it is the true fulfillment of what the Puritans wanted. I see the intentions of my ancestors fulfilled in many, though perhaps not all, aspects of modern liberalism, and I feel it honors their legacy.
Taboo only creates a source of sexual excitement in breaking it, and so does sexist "submission" and societal obsession with "gender roles." Women who are only good for behaving as sex objects have no place in modern society, whether they cover themselves with expensive make-up or dark bedsheets.
The hijab would ONLY be useful if it were used by Muslim women as an expression of sexual and, most importantly, social independence. For it to work, it must become associated with female literacy and education. It must become associated with a Muslim feminist movement. Otherwise, it will fail. Worse, it could defeat its own purpose. Until the Muslims have realized this, they also will fail.
Do you realize what I am getting at, or am I talking to a person who is not constrained or inhibited by logic or reason? A burqa that is used as bondage gear does not create a case for Allah. Don't you understand? Can you understand? I have not once denounced the use that you suggest for the burqa. It is an honorable intention. I respect it. It is not the burqa I object to but more the burqa as what amounts to a perverse and repugnant sexual fetish.
Perhaps one day you will understand why atheists are one of the most well-behaved groups in Western society: we are constrained by logic and reason as the religiously affiliated are constrained by encoded morals. We see faith as a deadly temptation. Similarly, liberals are constrained by the ideals of sensitivity and social equality, yet both liberals and atheists are dismissed as morally libertine in the face of contradictory evidence. We cannot survive if we are blind to one another's motivations for what we do and what we believe. I urge you to seek a deeper comprehension for the philosophies of others. Perhaps this will enable me to do the same, and we can live in the peace and mutual friendship envisioned in Isaiah. |
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Khan_Sama
Phoenix
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Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Age: 19
Posts: 707
Location: Royal State of Hyderabad
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Griff wrote: | | Khan_Sama wrote: | | Griff wrote: | | The burka is ridiculous, though, and it's counter-productive. Social liberalization and egalitarian compassion is the only strategy that has consistently proven itself effective in reducing sexual mischeif and violent crime. Oppressive taboo is like gasoline on the fire. |
The hijab can only prevent sexual abuse or harassment to a certain extent, its main purpose is for men to treat a woman for who she is - a human being. |
Nonsense. Countries in which women are encouraged to behave with sexual independence are notorious for having very low crime rates and very low rates of rape and sexual abuse. The burqa may be useful if its design had this end in mind, but it will never be useful as long as it is enforced by men. If women are concealing their sexual features in order to prevent men from perceiving them as sex objects, then it must not be used as a symbol of sexual submission. It must be initiated and supported by the women themselves for its intent to be fulfilled. It must be used as a symbol of independence if it is to succeed. |
Men enforce it only in the KSA and Iran. Only these two countries. In countries with high illiteracy like Pakistan and India, many Muslim men force their women to wear the hijab, but they make up a minority. The hijab is basically very common in and around the Arabian peninsula, it gets rarer the further away from Mecca. I'd like to point out that there are many Muslim feminists, particularly in the west, and most of them wear the hijab. I find it very strange, outside traditional Arabia and Iran, cacausian converts wear the hijab more than Muslims. I don't think any Muslim views it as a symbol of sexual submission. Iirc, Condoleeza Rice, just a little after the start of the Iraq war, met a group of women in the KSA, and said that it is her hope that America can help in liberating them, to which she got angry replies. To make it clear, they just meant "please don't screw around with our religion". Seriously, we're not forcing your women to wear the hijab. Why must you all force our women to not wear theirs?
| Quote: | | Quote: | | You say that social liberalization and egalitarian compassion is the only strategy to combat violence against women. If so, why is rape more common than pickpocketing in the US, even though only approximately 1 in 10 cases of rape are reported to the police? |
The US is actually a relatively conservative country. Furthermore, women are still treated very much as sex objects in American culture. Statistically, though, more socially liberal states in the US have much lower crime rates in spite of urbanization usually resulting in elevated crime rates. Furthermore, sexual attitudes in the Scandinavian countries actually hold independent-minded women to be highly attractive, and these countries have very low rates of crime, drug abuse, and rape. It works. It's just underappreciated or misunderstood in the US.
http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_for_rap_percap-crime-forcible-rape-per-capita
Egalitarianism is a method of maintaining moral order, not an encouragement for people to go about behaving willy-nilly as they please. It is one of the more strict aspects of liberalism, and it will never be appreciated in a society that is at heart morally depraved.
Furthermore, egalitarianism, which is the more moralistic aspect of liberalism, is heavily ridiculed and quite hated in the US. It is slurred as "political correctness," and denunciations of it are very popular in political slogans. This needs to change. We can't just feed heavily on the more "liberating" aspects of liberalism and expect it to make our society wonderful and pretty. We need to run a tighter ship. |
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Here in India, a woman is raped every hour (or so the statistics pointed out half a decade ago, it may have doubled or tripled by now). The rate of sexual violence is far lesser in Muslim countries. |
India still practices the sodomy laws imposed upon them during British colonialism, and they are hardly an egalitarian country. To this day, they haven't truly broken from their history of casteism. Sorry, but you can't just cherry-pick the worst examples of Western Democracy and hold them up against the better countries in which the hijab is practiced. If you cannot hold a straightforward discussion, do not bother me. I do not have patience for the tedious blindness of a human being who has sold his soul for his misguided beliefs. |
I have taken India as an example as I live here, I'm not comparing it to a western democracy. This topic has nothing to do with any politics. Sure, casteism is a problem in the rural areas, a big problem, but that has nothing to do with the topic. Muslims are a minority here. We make 15% of the population. The Hijab is worn by less than 15% of Muslim women here. The saree is the most popular dress for women, which reveals many parts of the body.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Prevention is better than a cure. |
Treating the symptoms just doesn't work. A change in attitudes is required. Men must embrace practical and independent-minded women. It is a modern reflection of the Puritanical affection for chastity and simplicity. In a way, it is the true fulfillment of what the Puritans wanted. I see the intentions of my ancestors fulfilled in many, though perhaps not all, aspects of modern liberalism, and I feel it honors their legacy.
Taboo only creates a source of sexual excitement in breaking it, and so does sexist "submission" and societal obsession with "gender roles." Women who are only good for behaving as sex objects have no place in modern society, whether they cover themselves with expensive make-up or dark bedsheets.
The hijab would ONLY be useful if it were used by Muslim women as an expression of sexual and, most importantly, social independence. For it to work, it must become associated with female literacy and education. It must become associated with a Muslim feminist movement. Otherwise, it will fail. Worse, it could defeat its own purpose. Until the Muslims have realized this, they also will fail.
Do you realize what I am getting at, or am I talking to a person who is not constrained or inhibited by logic or reason? A burqa that is used as bondage gear does not create a case for Allah. Don't you understand? Can you understand? I have not once denounced the use that you suggest for the burqa. It is an honorable intention. I respect it. It is not the burqa I object to but more the burqa as what amounts to a perverse and repugnant sexual fetish.
Perhaps one day you will understand why atheists are one of the most well-behaved groups in Western society: we are constrained by logic and reason as the religiously affiliated are constrained by encoded morals. Similarly, liberals are constrained by the ideals of sensitivity and social equality, yet both liberals and atheists are dismissed as morally libertine in the face of contradictory evidence. We cannot survive if we are blind to one another's motivations for what we do and what we believe. I urge you to seek a deeper comprehension for the philosophies of others. Perhaps this will enable me to do the same, and we can live in the peace and mutual friendship envisioned in Isaiah. |
I would like to make it clear, premarital sex is a very big sin in Islam. We believe that sex must be limited inside the institution called marriage, and that a woman must look beautiful only for her husband and nobody else (and vice-versa, thus Muslim men are encouraged to grow beards). Lol, you typed this as if all Muslims are a bunch of uneducated village folk. I'd like to point out that in the hijabi areas, ie, the Arabian peninsula, most of these countries are well developed countries with high literacy rates, and a high standard of living. How can you say that the hijab will ever fail when your own people are converting and wearing it? 
I don't really know why you think the burqa is a sexual fetish. Its purpose is completely the opposite of that.
Dude, I'm a former atheist. I know many atheists. Some good, some bad. Just like every other community. There's no difference whether you're atheist or Muslim or Christian or Jew etc. There are good things and bad things about everyone. To say that my religious beliefs are misguided and that you're well-behaved is rather hypocritical of you. A well behaved person won't insult another person while arguing against their views. |
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D1nk0
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 12, 2007
Age: 29
Posts: 1589
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Ive said it before, and I'll say it again: I certainly DO NOT think that muslim women should be required to cover their faces with veils........however I really dont think its such a terrible thing that they're not allowed to show off their bodies in public. Furthermore, I honestly think that that in the interest of fairness Men should not be allowed to expose their bodies either!
I would have NO problem with it personally and AFAIC muslim men are NOT allowed to expose their arms, chests, legs or feet.
So not allowing Anyone to show anything more than their hands and faces in public and in front of strangers of the opposite sex I strongly believe would eliminate all this needless sexual tension and sexual harassment. 
| Griff wrote: | Treating the symptoms just doesn't work. A change in attitudes is required. Men must embrace practical and independent-minded women. It is a modern reflection of the Puritanical affection for chastity and simplicity. In a way, it is the true fulfillment of what the Puritans wanted. I see the intentions of my ancestors fulfilled in many, though perhaps not all, aspects of modern liberalism, and I feel it honors their legacy.
Taboo only creates a source of sexual excitement in breaking it, and so does sexist "submission" and societal obsession with "gender roles." Women who are only good for behaving as sex objects have no place in modern society, whether they cover themselves with expensive make-up or dark bedsheets. |
The best way to change mens attitudes is to see women in a Non-sexual presentation which is exactly what loose-fitting clothes than conceal the shape of womens bodies are desigend to do. As for the last sentence, does that mean that stripping should be banned as well as prostitution? |
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Speckles
Velociraptor
Joined: May 03, 2008
Posts: 448
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Griff wrote: | Men are psychologically vulnerable, and there are many "date rape" situations in which the male is as much a victim as his partner. It is nonsense to assume that you have to lay your hands on a person in order to violate him or her. It's a murky issue, but it is one that needs to be addressed. I am very tired of living in society in which men are made out to be either ogres or morons. Misandry is every bit as evil as misogyny.
Furthermore, I am sickened that some nonexistent "glass ceiling" is held responsible for men's advantages in such fields as engineering. We don't purposely exclude women from entering the field, but every single time the subject comes up, I hear so-called "feminists" whining and moaning about the "glass ceiling." I sympathize with their cause where it is meaningful, but it is both ridiculous and reprehensible to blame some conspiracy on something that is more than likely rooted in biology. Should I blame feminists for the greater prevalence of autism in males? Frankly, I think that modern Western feminists are a bunch of ignorant bitties who want to hold some made-up conspiracy responsible for every pissy problem in their entire lives. Rest assured, I support their cause whole-heartedly, but I find them embarrassing.
Once again, though, problems related to sexual and social misconduct are best remedied by relatively rigid egalitarianism. It is time-tested, and it has become one of our most important sociological tools. Unfortunately, social conservatives are too stupid to realize the true importance of this tool. |
Okay, I'm willing to agree that there is definately some misandry within portions of the feminist movement, and conspiricy theories of some evil patriachy is stupid, but there is definately a glass ceiling in the techie fields. It's possible to smash through it, but it often involves behaving like a raving bitch. It's getting better over time, but I still have to be a lot nastier then my male peers to get them to listen to me consistantly. It's really annoying, and it's turning me into Alice from Dilbert, which kind of freaky. |
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Griff
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 17, 2006
Posts: 1615
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| Speckles wrote: | | Griff wrote: | Men are psychologically vulnerable, and there are many "date rape" situations in which the male is as much a victim as his partner. It is nonsense to assume that you have to lay your hands on a person in order to violate him or her. It's a murky issue, but it is one that needs to be addressed. I am very tired of living in society in which men are made out to be either ogres or morons. Misandry is every bit as evil as misogyny.
Furthermore, I am sickened that some nonexistent "glass ceiling" is held responsible for men's advantages in such fields as engineering. We don't purposely exclude women from entering the field, but every single time the subject comes up, I hear so-called "feminists" whining and moaning about the "glass ceiling." I sympathize with their cause where it is meaningful, but it is both ridiculous and reprehensible to blame some conspiracy on something that is more than likely rooted in biology. Should I blame feminists for the greater prevalence of autism in males? Frankly, I think that modern Western feminists are a bunch of ignorant bitties who want to hold some made-up conspiracy responsible for every pissy problem in their entire lives. Rest assured, I support their cause whole-heartedly, but I find them embarrassing.
Once again, though, problems related to sexual and social misconduct are best remedied by relatively rigid egalitarianism. It is time-tested, and it has become one of our most important sociological tools. Unfortunately, social conservatives are too stupid to realize the true importance of this tool. |
Okay, I'm willing to agree that there is definately some misandry within portions of the feminist movement, and conspiricy theories of some evil patriachy is stupid, but there is definately a glass ceiling in the techie fields. It's possible to smash through it, but it often involves behaving like a raving bitch. It's getting better over time, but I still have to be a lot nastier then my male peers to get them to listen to me consistantly. It's really annoying, and it's turning me into Alice from Dilbert, which kind of freaky. |
Men do tend to have a higher level of natural aptitude in the field, though. Human sexual dimorphism actually does extend to cognitive abilities. The men you're working with are just not used to the idea of women being competent in the field, and it's really not their fault. They haven't been given any reason to be because, quite frankly, it's true.
Don't even try picking out some hidden agenda because it just ain't there. |
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Griff
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 17, 2006
Posts: 1615
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| Khan_Sama wrote: | | Men enforce it only in the KSA and Iran. Only these two countries. In countries with high illiteracy like Pakistan and India, many Muslim men force their women to wear the hijab, but they make up a minority. The hijab is basically very common in and around the Arabian peninsula, it gets rarer the further away from Mecca. |
That is very interesting. I was unaware of this discrepency. So Iran and KSA are unique in actually making a habit of enforcing this thing. Also, it dilutes further from Mecca. I would like to further explore the sociological forces which may be responsible for this phenomenon.
| Quote: | | I'd like to point out that there are many Muslim feminists, particularly in the west, and most of them wear the hijab. I find it very strange, outside traditional Arabia and Iran, cacausian converts wear the hijab more than Muslims. |
They don't take it for granted, or they would not have converted. This simply stands to reason. People who convert to Christianity can be just as goofy. I think it's a universal. Is it? I'm unsure. It seems to be. By the way, I'm judging from your tone that you realize I meant well, and suddenly I'm inclined to apologize for the dramatics. I think I have some PTSD from dealing with people who are disinterested in having a helpful conversation.
I am thinking that there were a few things that I did not quite understand about your culture. Disabuse me at your pleasure, ol' chap.
| Quote: | | I don't think any Muslim views it as a symbol of sexual submission. Iirc, Condoleeza Rice, just a little after the start of the Iraq war, met a group of women in the KSA, and said that it is her hope that America can help in liberating them, to which she got angry replies. To make it clear, they just meant "please don't screw around with our religion". Seriously, we're not forcing your women to wear the hijab. Why must you all force our women to not wear theirs? |
Concealed weapons. You may have more chance of being struck by lightening than even witnessing a school shooting, but the schools are rabidly paranoid due to a few notorious incidents. I think it comes from Americans having a few loose wires in their heads. Kuh-fu-soo say, "Do not attribute to discrimination what more likely emerges from some goofy, undereducated bitch having a corncob up her butt."
| Quote: | | I have taken India as an example as I live here, I'm not comparing it to a western democracy. This topic has nothing to do with any politics. Sure, casteism is a problem in the rural areas, a big problem, but that has nothing to do with the topic. Muslims are a minority here. We make 15% of the population. The Hijab is worn by less than 15% of Muslim women here. The saree is the most popular dress for women, which reveals many parts of the body. |
A minority in a country so densely populated still makes you a sizable population, I would figure.
By the way, if I recall correctly, many Bosnian women don't give a hoo-hah about Shariah Law, and they have their own equivalent of Prada there. I knew a young woman from there, once.
| Quote: | | I would like to make it clear, premarital sex is a very big sin in Islam. We believe that sex must be limited inside the institution called marriage, and that a woman must look beautiful only for her husband and nobody else (and vice-versa, thus Muslim men are encouraged to grow beards). |
Oh, marriage has lost much of its seriousness here in many parts of the US, and people wonder why they're suffering from alarming rates of clinical depression. Oh, perhaps it arises from us being a culture that is incapable of planning ahead for anything, doesn't bother to think decisions through, upholds impulse and whim above all mores, and seems to think that self-control is a sin. Do you think that might have something to do with it? Eh? Perhaps it's because we're in a culture that prioritizes social bullying leaps and bounds over anything seriously useful? Oh, don't buy anything I say, though. I'm just suggesting that someone should take responsibility somewhere along the line. It's none of my business. Noooooo. It's always someone else's business than Griff's business.
| Quote: | | Lol, you typed this as if all Muslims are a bunch of uneducated village folk. |
Do excuse me. I should have known better than this.
| Quote: | | I'd like to point out that in the hijabi areas, ie, the Arabian peninsula, most of these countries are well developed countries with high literacy rates, and a high standard of living. |
Isn't Saudi Arabia pretty notorious for human rights violations? I'm uncertain. You would know more about it than myself. Why are women there not allowed to drive? Wouldn't this make life abnormally difficult for single mothers or women who lack any interest in marriage, sex, or family?
| Quote: | | How can you say that the hijab will ever fail when your own people are converting and wearing it? |
Come off it. Christians are just as shrill in boasting of how many people they've converted to Christianity. Everywhere I go, I see some plaque or other proclaiming how some foreigner converted to Christianity during a "tent revival" and became popular, successful, and well-liked. Furthermore, my grandmother regularly reminds me that she is going to have a nice house and a beautiful automobile when she gets to Heaven. My, what a giving fellow! You'd think he was Santa Claus! Oh, dude, if you had been around some of the shallow, foolish swill that I have always up-put with, then you would understand some of my reflexive attitudes toward religion. I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole. It's materialistic poison.
| Quote: | | I don't really know why you think the burqa is a sexual fetish. Its purpose is completely the opposite of that. |
The burqa is one thing. Structuring a society around imaginary gender roles suggests something amiss as far as I can understand.
| Quote: | | Dude, I'm a former atheist. I know many atheists. Some good, some bad. Just like every other community. There's no difference whether you're atheist or Muslim or Christian or Jew etc. There are good things and bad things about everyone. To say that my religious beliefs are misguided and that you're well-behaved is rather hypocritical of you. A well behaved person won't insult another person while arguing against their views. |
Then, from henceforth, I will be your pupil in all things Islam. It doesn't pay for me to comment on things when I don't really know anything about them. It really defeats the purpose of me doing so, I think. The only thing that I know of Islam is the testimony of a young Bosnian lass (apparently upper-middle class, since she travelled extensively) who loved reminding people of how amusing she found Western perceptions of Bosnia and the Middle East. |
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 8976
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Griff wrote: | | Having them neutered, perhaps? |
Naw, that wouldn't work. How about gender reassignments, Griff? |
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