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beau99
B.S. Detector
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Joined: Nov 06, 2007
Age: 22
Posts: 1308
Location: A cruel H*llhole called Earth.
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 Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| Yupa wrote: |
If someone called you names and threw things at you and beat you up all the time would you say that we should all be nice to that person and "respect their differences?" (in terms of their "different" behaviour)
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Yes, definitely.
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My site: Thoughts of an Autistic (updated May 20, 2008)
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Sora
Love all, trust a few
Joined: Sep 16, 2006
Age: 20
Posts: 2900
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 3:28 am Post subject: |
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| Yupa wrote: | | kraken wrote: | Irrelevant, Yupa. He may be a distraction. He may be violently hurling pencils and scissors at his classmates. It may be appropriate to remove him from the class. It would never be appropriate to remove him by a majority vote of his peers after he's been held up for public ridicule by his classmates and his teacher.
There. Is. No. Justification. |
Hopefully he'll learn a valuable listen from the experience, but it seems like his parents are preventing him from letting the intended message sink into his skull. |
And what should he learn from that?
"All people hate me."? It is okay to bully and ridicule everybody? All people are good, but some are better and it is not you?
| Yupa wrote: | | KingdomOfRats wrote: | whether the boy has a diagnosis or not,he still would have the problems....it's disablism,and the teacher is also teaching the children that its okay to treat others with differences as less equal,what sort of dated belief is that now?
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If someone called you names and threw things at you and beat you up all the time would you say that we should all be nice to that person and "respect their differences?" (in terms of their "different" behaviour)
I don't think so. |
I'm appalled by your statement.
Disciplinary means and what this teacher did are two different things.
You do not seem to understand the impact such an incident has on a child nor the emotional implications that are involved regardless of age or person. By your reasoning, we can beat and damage everybody who does wrong in our view as long as we don't cause distress in society.
Respect for a human person is not earned. Our rights are unalienable - we are born to be respected and tolerated. This does definitely not exclude being taught, being disciplined for our sakes and the sakes of ours.
But there is a difference between lashing out in emotional distress - like that teacher did - and taking disciplinary means.
Doing back "the same" to teach such is wrong is not at all sensible. It's enforcing the idea of the superiority of power and that rights come with power only.
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The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. Terry Pratchett |
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windscar15
Velociraptor
Joined: Feb 17, 2008
Age: 19
Posts: 431
Location: San Jose, California
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 4:12 am Post subject: |
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yet another example of democracy being a crappy form of administration.
Just cause a majority agrees on something people, doesn't make it right.
I'm not saying a dictatorship would be better though |
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Yupa
Avatar of Evil
Joined: May 15, 2005
Age: 18
Posts: 1318
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| Sora wrote: | | Yupa wrote: | | kraken wrote: | Irrelevant, Yupa. He may be a distraction. He may be violently hurling pencils and scissors at his classmates. It may be appropriate to remove him from the class. It would never be appropriate to remove him by a majority vote of his peers after he's been held up for public ridicule by his classmates and his teacher.
There. Is. No. Justification. |
Hopefully he'll learn a valuable listen from the experience, but it seems like his parents are preventing him from letting the intended message sink into his skull. |
And what should he learn from that?
"All people hate me."? It is okay to bully and ridicule everybody? All people are good, but some are better and it is not you?
| Yupa wrote: | | KingdomOfRats wrote: | whether the boy has a diagnosis or not,he still would have the problems....it's disablism,and the teacher is also teaching the children that its okay to treat others with differences as less equal,what sort of dated belief is that now?
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If someone called you names and threw things at you and beat you up all the time would you say that we should all be nice to that person and "respect their differences?" (in terms of their "different" behaviour)
I don't think so. |
I'm appalled by your statement.
Disciplinary means and what this teacher did are two different things.
You do not seem to understand the impact such an incident has on a child nor the emotional implications that are involved regardless of age or person. By your reasoning, we can beat and damage everybody who does wrong in our view as long as we don't cause distress in society.
Respect for a human person is not earned. Our rights are unalienable - we are born to be respected and tolerated. This does definitely not exclude being taught, being disciplined for our sakes and the sakes of ours.
But there is a difference between lashing out in emotional distress - like that teacher did - and taking disciplinary means.
Doing back "the same" to teach such is wrong is not at all sensible. It's enforcing the idea of the superiority of power and that rights come with power only. |
Lashing out in emotional distress? From what I've heard it sounds like she thought it through and went about it quite rationally. |
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Yupa
Avatar of Evil
Joined: May 15, 2005
Age: 18
Posts: 1318
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| windscar15 wrote: | yet another example of democracy being a crappy form of administration.
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Oh, and perhaps you'd prefer Fascism? |
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beau99
B.S. Detector
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Joined: Nov 06, 2007
Age: 22
Posts: 1308
Location: A cruel H*llhole called Earth.
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Yupa wrote: | | Sora wrote: | | Yupa wrote: | | kraken wrote: | Irrelevant, Yupa. He may be a distraction. He may be violently hurling pencils and scissors at his classmates. It may be appropriate to remove him from the class. It would never be appropriate to remove him by a majority vote of his peers after he's been held up for public ridicule by his classmates and his teacher.
There. Is. No. Justification. |
Hopefully he'll learn a valuable listen from the experience, but it seems like his parents are preventing him from letting the intended message sink into his skull. |
And what should he learn from that?
"All people hate me."? It is okay to bully and ridicule everybody? All people are good, but some are better and it is not you?
| Yupa wrote: | | KingdomOfRats wrote: | whether the boy has a diagnosis or not,he still would have the problems....it's disablism,and the teacher is also teaching the children that its okay to treat others with differences as less equal,what sort of dated belief is that now?
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If someone called you names and threw things at you and beat you up all the time would you say that we should all be nice to that person and "respect their differences?" (in terms of their "different" behaviour)
I don't think so. |
I'm appalled by your statement.
Disciplinary means and what this teacher did are two different things.
You do not seem to understand the impact such an incident has on a child nor the emotional implications that are involved regardless of age or person. By your reasoning, we can beat and damage everybody who does wrong in our view as long as we don't cause distress in society.
Respect for a human person is not earned. Our rights are unalienable - we are born to be respected and tolerated. This does definitely not exclude being taught, being disciplined for our sakes and the sakes of ours.
But there is a difference between lashing out in emotional distress - like that teacher did - and taking disciplinary means.
Doing back "the same" to teach such is wrong is not at all sensible. It's enforcing the idea of the superiority of power and that rights come with power only. |
Lashing out in emotional distress? From what I've heard it sounds like she thought it through and went about it quite rationally. |
Why in the hell are you defending the poor excuse for a human?
_________________
My site: Thoughts of an Autistic (updated May 20, 2008)
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Sora
Love all, trust a few
Joined: Sep 16, 2006
Age: 20
Posts: 2900
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Yupa wrote: | | Lashing out in emotional distress? From what I've heard it sounds like she thought it through and went about it quite rationally. |
That's not even true.
Thinking something through does not exclude emotional distress and lashing out. Rational and strategic thinking does not exclude an emotional drive, thankfully.
Even a murderer can murder in many ways - by striking his victim is pure rage and by crucial planning for a prolonged period of time. For one, rational thinking does not exclude a most horrible outcome.
Also, rational thinking is a tool, not a moral viewpoint and neither a psychological viewpoint. It follows rules,. percentages and +/- and does not take the human psyche into consideration. Everything can be rationalised. If you do not believe - talk to a psychopath. That's the most extreme case that shows that everything can be made to serve everything.
And picking up that idea - as it is just as likely and we do not know - that this woman meant no harm to the boy herself, didn't mean to 'get back' at him - then she's a most stupid individual.
I have a hard time believing a person in Western society is in bliss about what bullying and power plays are. In that case the teacher must have a form of social impairment, by the inability to understand basic social interaction and communication.
I wonder what you want to get at. That this boy behaves himself? Yes, agreed. If there's a problem, it's a problem that ought to be identified and solved.
And that, you say, includes having a destroyed ego and emotional issues, because... ?
You do know there are a wide range of disciplinary measures? Because it seems like you think the only way to teach a child to stop misbehaving is by fear.
I on the other hand say that the far better teacher is respect.
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The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. Terry Pratchett |
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Spokane_Girl
I would walk 500 miles and I would walk 500 more
Joined: Jul 17, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 4225
Location: Benny & Joon town (I wish)
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| beau99 wrote: | | Yupa wrote: |
If someone called you names and threw things at you and beat you up all the time would you say that we should all be nice to that person and "respect their differences?" (in terms of their "different" behaviour)
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Yes, definitely. |
OMG you support bullying? |
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tailfins1959
Deinonychus
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Joined: Apr 07, 2008
Posts: 345
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Spokane_Girl wrote: | | beau99 wrote: | | Yupa wrote: |
If someone called you names and threw things at you and beat you up all the time would you say that we should all be nice to that person and "respect their differences?" (in terms of their "different" behaviour)
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Yes, definitely. |
OMG you support bullying? |
I support boxing. Respect the bully, train and practice until you can take him. It builds character. Even the bully will have to respect you. If it worked for Father Flanagan in Boy's Town ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0029942/ ) , it can work nowadays.
| Yupa wrote: | | windscar15 wrote: | yet another example of democracy being a crappy form of administration.
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Oh, and perhaps you'd prefer Fascism? |
Hitler was the duly elected Chancellor of Germany. You apparently support democracy, which is what put Hitler in power. I support a Constitutional Republic with inalienable rights that even the majority cannot take away.
| Yupa wrote: |
Lashing out in emotional distress? From what I've heard it sounds like she thought it through and went about it quite rationally. |
Charles Manson carefully thought out what he did, is that somehow a mitigating circumstance?
| makuranososhi wrote: |
The issues are interrelated; hows does someone who has trouble in social situations and interpreting the actions and responses of others supposed to have something 'sink into his skull'? Gross and substantial misplacement of blame here, in my opinion. While - if and only if - he does have some behavioral problem I would understand addressing that issues within the confines of the IED process and through the administration. However, what the teacher did was wrong; by creating that situation the young boy is a pariah amongst his peers. If he needs assistance, then that is what needs to be pursued... but education by shame is a brutal, cruel and infrequently effective process. Where do you see entitlement?
M. |
I hear it is frequently effective in Red China against political dissidents.
_________________
Yeah with all of these men lining up to get neutered
It's hip now to be feminized
I don't highlight my hair
I've still got a pair
Yeah honey, I'm still a guy |
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LeKiwi
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 2629
Location: The murky waters of my mind...
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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Having been 'voted out' of a class myself, though not for misbehaving, I know the trauma and confusion it can cause. And I was a lot older then 5 when it happened. This poor child is already going to be confused enough by social situations and the many rules of school and the different things you have to learn at that age (you just think about how you found life at that age), to then have all those kids say they find you disgusting is just so awful beyond words. Just remember how things were at that age - being bullied, trying to make friends, not realising when you were doing things 'wrong' and desperately trying to fit in and have people like you, thinking maybe you were making headway with one or two... and to then have them turn around and vote you out - a concept you probably wouldn't even really 'get' at that point anyway - and say all those things without any provocation or reason would just be traumatic and awful beyond words.
Children with Aspergers need things to be explained to them, they need teaching and guidance and support and a huge amount of love to teach them the ins and outs of everyday life and interaction. Not condoned bullying and tramatising by the people who are meant to help you.
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We are a fever, we are a fever, we ain't born typical...
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Who_Am_I
Paralysing perfectionism
Joined: Aug 28, 2005
Age: 24
Posts: 3354
Location: My body is in Brisbane and my mind is in the gutter. :D
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| kraken wrote: | Irrelevant, Yupa. He may be a distraction. He may be violently hurling pencils and scissors at his classmates. It may be appropriate to remove him from the class. It would never be appropriate to remove him by a majority vote of his peers after he's been held up for public ridicule by his classmates and his teacher.
There. Is. No. Justification. |
Agreed.
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I don't dislike humans, I just don't want them to inhabit the same planet as me. |
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spudnik
The Spalding Gray of Crap.
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 3947
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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God damn that makes me so f***ing angry, I remember how it was for me at that age in kindergarten, there is a special place in hell for those kinds of teachers. Sorry for the language but if I was that parent I would have taken it out on the bitch teacher.
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Warsie
OG Balla Representin' Da Souf Sydeeee of Chi-City
Joined: Apr 04, 2008
Age: 18
Posts: 1686
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Yupa"]
He was a problem student. They had to do something and they'd probably already tried everything else. [/quote]
so it's okay to result to mainstream social BS: e.g. shaming and trying to getting him to fit the mold? LOL XD
EDIT: I saw this yesterday on 4chan's /b/.
Last edited by Warsie on Tue May 27, 2008 7:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Warsie
OG Balla Representin' Da Souf Sydeeee of Chi-City
Joined: Apr 04, 2008
Age: 18
Posts: 1686
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Mage wrote: | | A slap on the face, a spank on the butt heal in a few minutes. Being whipped or caned may heal in a few days. Being publicly humiliated by his own teacher is something he will bear the scars for the rest of his life. |
Being hit can have similar effects.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin4.htm
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9/11 was an inside job
http://www.911truth.org/
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Yupa
Avatar of Evil
Joined: May 15, 2005
Age: 18
Posts: 1318
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Warsie wrote: | | Yupa wrote: |
He was a problem student. They had to do something and they'd probably already tried everything else. |
so it's okay to result to mainstream social BS: e.g. shaming and trying to getting him to fit the mold? LOL XD
EDIT: I saw this yesterday on 4chan's /b/. |
If it weren't for "mainstream social BS" we'd have people walking around wearing umbrella hats and polka-dot ties crapping in public and touching other people without permission (quite probably in very wrong places), just to name a few of the milder things that would be going on. |
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