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acannon
Snowy Owl
Joined: Sep 29, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 131
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 Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:48 am Post subject: |
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| He also seemed to have echolalia from what I saw of the interview. That could also be a disruption. (Not saying there's anything wrong with echolalia, I have a form of echolalia myself, just saying that it could be considered disruptive in a mainstreamed classroom.) I don't know why it's taking him so long to get diagnosed. He seemed like an Aspie to me. |
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roguetech
Deinonychus
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 35
Posts: 350
Location: Climax
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| Yupa wrote: | | The teacher was punished for doing the right thing, and when people are punished for doing what they should be doing, that really pisses me off. |
I think the right thing to do would have been to ask the child to go to the nurses' station (if he was being particularly disruptive that day), and speak to the parent about placing the child in a setting that could deal with whatever special needs he requires. If the socially accepted "right thing" is to ridicule and taunt children to teach them that school is a place to fear, then I don't see how Autistic behavior could be considered social unnacceptable, unless of course he was considerate to his classmates. | Quote: | | In real life peoples' behaviour is evaluated when they get out of line and if their presence is determined to be detrimental to the workplace environment in any way they are fired. |
Being fired would be equivalant to expelling him from the school, NOT ridiculing him and making his expulsion a public specticle. More to the point, you need to read up on the American's With Disabilities Act (for the US, other countries have similiar). "In real life" people not only may not be "fired", but are also protected against being singled out for discrimination (i.e. ridicule) for a disability. If I were treated this way at my place of employement, I would sue the socks off them. (see http://www.sunpublications.com/articles/2008/04/03/overland_park_sun/news/doc47f3dfc5168a5902822605.txt) |
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ihitterdal
Sea Gull
Joined: May 09, 2007
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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Those people just make me sick, even more so than pirates without good reasons. If I were there, I'd use psychological methods to get everyone ELSE out of the room.
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If you don't like Death Note, please exit via the broken glass shooting room. |
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Averick
Calculateurre of Chaos
Joined: Mar 06, 2007
Age: 29
Posts: 2170
Location: in the trenches..
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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I don't like school for this very reason.
I had hellish teachers through grade school. |
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Yupa
Avatar of Evil
Joined: May 15, 2005
Age: 18
Posts: 1318
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| roguetech wrote: | | Yupa wrote: | | The teacher was punished for doing the right thing, and when people are punished for doing what they should be doing, that really pisses me off. |
I think the right thing to do would have been to ask the child to go to the nurses' station (if he was being particularly disruptive that day), and speak to the parent about placing the child in a setting that could deal with whatever special needs he requires. If the socially accepted "right thing" is to ridicule and taunt children to teach them that school is a place to fear, then I don't see how Autistic behavior could be considered social unnacceptable, unless of course he was considerate to his classmates. | Quote: | | In real life peoples' behaviour is evaluated when they get out of line and if their presence is determined to be detrimental to the workplace environment in any way they are fired. |
Being fired would be equivalant to expelling him from the school, NOT ridiculing him and making his expulsion a public specticle. More to the point, you need to read up on the American's With Disabilities Act (for the US, other countries have similiar). "In real life" people not only may not be "fired", but are also protected against being singled out for discrimination (i.e. ridicule) for a disability. If I were treated this way at my place of employement, I would sue the socks off them. (see http://www.sunpublications.com/articles/2008/04/03/overland_park_sun/news/doc47f3dfc5168a5902822605.txt) |
Once again, he was not being ridiculed "for a disability", since it was not yet proven that he had Asperger's Syndrome.
Oh, and here are some other examples of someone "being singled out for discrimination": refusing to hire a person who is proven to be mentally retarded because you know that their disability will prevent them from contributing to the organization they are applying for, and refusing to let a cripple join a football team.
However I'd say that in this boy's case his disability should not play into the matter. If the teacher wanted him out of the class because he was playing with his pencil or because he stuttered or was twitchy, that would be different. However, he had a history of disruptive behaviour.
Another thing that should be pointed out (I know this from my experience in elementary school) is that children often want to be sent out of class, and the more manipulative students (I was one of them) will often behave as badly as possible just so that they have an excuse to leave the classroom.
Therefore sending him out of class would not be just, as it would not properly qualify as a punishment.
In fact, some students might even consider it a reward, which wouldn't exactly make very much sense.
Notice also that the articles on this matter are very unspecific about the events leading up to this, but they must have been pretty severe if the teacher had to ask the class to vote the student out.
I brought this issue up with my father, by the way, and he agreed that the teacher handled the situation appropriately, and he's usually the sort of person who'd take the child's side in cases like this. |
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Yupa
Avatar of Evil
Joined: May 15, 2005
Age: 18
Posts: 1318
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| srriv345 wrote: | | Just a quick note of factual clarification: Examples of Alex's "disturbing behaviors" seem to include spinning, hiding under tables, and eating paper/crayons. This is from Melissa Barton, and the school district has said nothing further. There is no indication whatsoever that Alex posed a danger to others. He needs help to better deal with school, but this has nothing to do with being a "disturbance" and everything to do with ostracizing people who are different. Again, this is kindergarten, and "disturbances" are to be expected. If a teacher can't handle that, then he or she probably shouldn't be teaching at all, and definitely shouldn't be teaching kids that young. I wonder how many other kids, special needs or not, have suffered because of her intolerance. |
If someone is eating mucous or licking their toes in public should you just pass them by and "respect their differences"?
I doubt it.
This has quite a lot to do with his being a disturbance.
Why aren't you more specific about why and how he was spinning (which btw does pose a danger to others), eating crayons, and hiding under tables? |
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Yupa
Avatar of Evil
Joined: May 15, 2005
Age: 18
Posts: 1318
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| catspurr wrote: |
I was taught those so called lessons and all it did was made my hatred of people even more intense. |
Maybe because a certain selfish part of you refuses to acknowledge that there was an actual purpose in those lessons aside from the sadism you seem to attribute to them?
It would do you some good to think about the actual feelings and motivations of those who taught you those lessons. |
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acannon
Snowy Owl
Joined: Sep 29, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 131
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| I've read that his disruptive behavior included spinning, picking his nose, and crawling under the table. He also seemed echolalic to me, which could be discrimination if that was a reason for his removal from the classroom. Also, younger kids generally don't want to be removed from class, especially in that manner. They tend to like school because it's a new thing to them. |
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acannon
Snowy Owl
Joined: Sep 29, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 131
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| Yupa, I'm sick of arguing with you on this. Obviously you're not getting that this child was deeply traumatized (and rightfully so) because of what this so-called teacher did to him. He's just a little boy. He doesn't have the same mental capacity that we do, because we're older. We know that spinning around can hurt people. He doesn't. Even though I created this thread, I'm going to respectfully step out of it, because you just don't seem to understand how hurtful Ms. Portillo's actions were to Alex, and, honestly, I'm tired of trying to explain it to you. Many people have tried to explain, using many different words and points of view, and you don't seem to be listening to any of them. So I am stepping out of this thread, and out of WP altogether. |
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Yupa
Avatar of Evil
Joined: May 15, 2005
Age: 18
Posts: 1318
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| acannon wrote: | | He doesn't have the same mental capacity that we do, because we're older. |
Which is exactly why he'd be less likely to experience the trauma that most of us imagine we would suffer in the situation, despite the fact that there are about a million worse things that could happen that actually would cause someone genuine trauma. |
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beau99
B.S. Detector
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Joined: Nov 06, 2007
Age: 22
Posts: 1308
Location: A cruel H*llhole called Earth.
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 3:31 am Post subject: |
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Yupa, why the hell are you taking the side of the stupid lowlife "teacher" for?
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My site: Thoughts of an Autistic (updated May 20, 2008)
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Sora
Love all, trust a few
Joined: Sep 16, 2006
Age: 20
Posts: 2900
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| Yupa wrote: | | acannon wrote: | | He doesn't have the same mental capacity that we do, because we're older. |
Which is exactly why he'd be less likely to experience the trauma that most of us imagine we would suffer in the situation, despite the fact that there are about a million worse things that could happen that actually would cause someone genuine trauma. |
Either you say that on purpose of disregarding or you're not quite informed about what a 'genuine trauma' can be, especially in a 5-year-old? Because psychs agree as well as literature agrees that this is first and foremost, a very strong trauma.
If you think different, you are entitled to your opinion, but that does not mean that it is factually correct as of today's standards and you should take that into mind.
By what you said earlier: You seem to identify too much with the child and the mention of disruptive behaviour. That is not a very good thing to do in a discussion.
Mainly because those of us who were labelled such as a child were not acting on the same impulse on intentional misbehaviour and because there are many reasons result in a teacher speaking of disruptive behaviour.
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The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. Terry Pratchett |
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makuranososhi
Purple Monkey Dishwasher
Joined: May 13, 2008
Posts: 2401
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| Yupa wrote: | | Quote: | | Alex has had disciplinary issues |
He was a problem student. They had to do something and they'd probably already tried everything else.
| Quote: | | her son is in the process of being diagnosed with Aspberger's, a type of high-functioning autism |
Notice it says "in the process." This is why accusations of bigotry don't hold up. |
Your POV is hard to understand; even if he was disruptive, what the teacher did was wrong. As a teacher, that is something that you simply do not do - by surrendering control of the class and making the other students complicit, she showed herself unable to work in that capacity at this time. Similarly, if the child is being diagnosed... does it make sense to withhold compassion, assistance, understanding, et al, until such time that a polished t... er, psychiatrist, is able to definitively ascertain the boy's condition? Shame on you.
M.
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He thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
From my heart and from my hand, why don't people understand my intentions...?
Why choose a lesser evil? Vote Cthulhu 2008! |
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srriv345
Velociraptor
Joined: Jul 19, 2006
Age: 21
Posts: 447
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Yupa wrote: |
If someone is eating mucous or licking their toes in public should you just pass them by and "respect their differences"?
I doubt it. |
If that someone was a five-year old? Well, I'd try to help him reduce unsanitary behaviors, but I certainly wouldn't subject him to exile. Have you ever been in a kindergarten classroom, Yupa? It's hardly a haven of order.
| Quote: | This has quite a lot to do with his being a disturbance.
Why aren't you more specific about why and how he was spinning (which btw does pose a danger to others), eating crayons, and hiding under tables? |
Uh, possibly because I don't know the details of this? From my own experiences and knowledge about autism, I'd guess he was doing so because his environment is so overwhelming. Plus, spinning is fun and is usually perfectly harmless. (Many of us on the spectrum don't get as dizzy as normal people do, and spinning is quite pleasurable. I'm not saying he should be allowed to do nothing but spin, but breaks are hardly unheard of for kindergarteners.) Environmental stressors need to be addressed, but it's not a teacher's place to unilaterally have a kid "voted out." This is kindergarten, not the military. |
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Yupa
Avatar of Evil
Joined: May 15, 2005
Age: 18
Posts: 1318
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| srriv345 wrote: | | It's hardly a haven of order. |
Mine was. |
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