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BokeKaeru
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 23, 2008
Age: 21
Posts: 516
Location: Alternately Los Angeles, CA and Northampton, MA
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 Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| n4mwd wrote: | The press did a wonderful job unfairly biasing the public against the teacher. She acted appropriately under the circumstances. The boy who has AS, also has a very severe form of ADHD and the stupid mother is one of those idiots that refuse to medicate her kids for ADHD. Meanwhile, when he was in the classroom, he was extremely disruptive to the other students. He rarely sat in his own chair and constantly shoved, pushed and kicked other students and their chairs and tables during class. The teacher was covering how elections work and when he returned from the principals office. She simply took the opportunity to allow the class to vote. It was also a clever way to let the boy know that his abusive behavior was not appreciated by his classmates.
If ANYBODY is to blame, its the boy's mother, not the teacher. She should have had him properly medicated. If I had a kid in that class, I would applaud the teacher for protecting my kids from such an abusive little boy.
That school is just a few miles from where I live. The teacher is a good teacher and not the monster the press has made her out to be. |
Still, this fails to answer why it was appropriate to FORCE people to say bad things about him, and pressure them into voting him out (like his friend was). Even if we take Alex himself out of the equation here (which we really shouldn't - last time I checked, socially humiliating five year olds to the point of emotional trauma isn't conducive to them getting along with others or making connections in the future), it won't bode well for those required to take part. I echo the last poster in saying that even if discipline was required, it could've been handled in a much better way, regardless of the kid's misbehavior. |
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n4mwd
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 08, 2008
Posts: 667
Location: Palm Beach, FL
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| BokeKaeru wrote: |
Still, this fails to answer why it was appropriate to FORCE people to say bad things about him, and pressure them into voting him out (like his friend was). Even if we take Alex himself out of the equation here (which we really shouldn't - last time I checked, socially humiliating five year olds to the point of emotional trauma isn't conducive to them getting along with others or making connections in the future), it won't bode well for those required to take part. I echo the last poster in saying that even if discipline was required, it could've been handled in a much better way, regardless of the kid's misbehavior. |
The teacher initiated the vote but did not force any student to vote a particular way. If you heard otherwise, then you heard wrong. If I recall correctly, two students voted to keep him. This was not the first time that the boy was told that he was being disruptive to the other kids. With AS he really isn't self aware that his actions are disruptive and a single adult telling him that would not be believed. Because of repeated trips to the principal's office, it was obvious that something different needed to be done. However, by having the entire class tell him that his actions are undesirable is a way to shock him into understanding that he has a problem. He can never improve until he comes to that understanding.
Think of it this way, electrocuting people with depression may seem like cruelty and maybe even torture to people who don't know any better. But the reality is that its an extremely effective treatment and is done in hospitals all the time. At such treatment centers, there is often a waiting list.
PS: As far as humiliating him, I should point out that he was doing that himself without the teacher's help, he just didn't realize it. |
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Spokane_Girl
I would walk 500 miles and I would walk 500 more
Joined: Jul 17, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 4225
Location: Benny & Joon town (I wish)
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| n4mwd wrote: | | Spokane_Girl wrote: | | But what the teacher did was still wrong regardless. She should have just sent him to the office. Also a teacher is supposed to call the child's parents if their child is having problems. The teacher could have called Alex's mother and talk to her about her son's behavior. |
The teacher did and she did. The boy had actually returned from the office after a morning of intolerable behavior when they did the vote.The mother was well aware of her son's behavior, but chose to do nothing about it.
Its his ADHD and his mother's refusal to medicate that is the problem. If all he had was AS, he wouldn't have been so disruptive. |
Is there any article that mentions this or a video about it? I couldn't find it. I am wondering where you got the information. |
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WonderWoman
Deinonychus
Joined: Jun 02, 2008
Age: 56
Posts: 356
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| n4mwd wrote: | | Spokane_Girl wrote: | | But what the teacher did was still wrong regardless. She should have just sent him to the office. Also a teacher is supposed to call the child's parents if their child is having problems. The teacher could have called Alex's mother and talk to her about her son's behavior. |
The teacher did and she did. The boy had actually returned from the office after a morning of intolerable behavior when they did the vote.The mother was well aware of her son's behavior, but chose to do nothing about it.
Its his ADHD and his mother's refusal to medicate that is the problem. If all he had was AS, he wouldn't have been so disruptive. |
The mother "chose to do nothing about it"? I understand the boy is in process of being evaluated for Asperger's. This sounds like the mature, adult step to take, not having children act as a jury to make the decision.
_________________
"Me voici donc seul sur la terre, n'ayant plus de frère de prochain d'ami de société que moi-même." Jean-Jacques Rousseau
"Do not think, 'I am alone.'" Sasaki Roshi
WonderWoman
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BokeKaeru
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 23, 2008
Age: 21
Posts: 516
Location: Alternately Los Angeles, CA and Northampton, MA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| n4mwd wrote: | | BokeKaeru wrote: |
Still, this fails to answer why it was appropriate to FORCE people to say bad things about him, and pressure them into voting him out (like his friend was). Even if we take Alex himself out of the equation here (which we really shouldn't - last time I checked, socially humiliating five year olds to the point of emotional trauma isn't conducive to them getting along with others or making connections in the future), it won't bode well for those required to take part. I echo the last poster in saying that even if discipline was required, it could've been handled in a much better way, regardless of the kid's misbehavior. |
The teacher initiated the vote but did not force any student to vote a particular way. If you heard otherwise, then you heard wrong. If I recall correctly, two students voted to keep him. This was not the first time that the boy was told that he was being disruptive to the other kids. With AS he really isn't self aware that his actions are disruptive and a single adult telling him that would not be believed. Because of repeated trips to the principal's office, it was obvious that something different needed to be done. However, by having the entire class tell him that his actions are undesirable is a way to shock him into understanding that he has a problem. He can never improve until he comes to that understanding.
Think of it this way, electrocuting people with depression may seem like cruelty and maybe even torture to people who don't know any better. But the reality is that its an extremely effective treatment and is done in hospitals all the time. At such treatment centers, there is often a waiting list.
PS: As far as humiliating him, I should point out that he was doing that himself without the teacher's help, he just didn't realize it. |
See, this gets to a "he-said-she-said" problem, because as far as the video link was posted is concerned, the teacher in question was pressuring Spencer, Alex's one and only friend, to vote against him - he voted for Alex the first time, and then was "encouraged" to change his vote to the expected one. Regardless of what you think of Alex, how is this fair to Spencer? Furthermore, the stories I've read on what happened indicate that Alex's classmates were ALL asked to say what they didn't like about him. This could all be false, but until the teacher herself comes forward and tells her side of the story, or some other witness/person on the periphery of this (such as the nurse or Spencer's parents) gives a conflicting report, the most reliable sources here are Alex and his mom.
I won't go into this too much, but electroshock therapy is questionable. If it's done of the patient's own volition, then fine, and best of luck to them in their treatment. However, if it's administered against someone's will, or used as an "aversive" (I'm looking at YOU, JRC!) then regardless of the results, I'd still class it as, if not torture, than at least unethical practices. You didn't specify on whether or not the waiting list was made by patients who wanted it or their doctors doing so "for their own good." (A phrase that can be used to justify many things...)
For someone to be humiliated, they have to realize it. And then once you realize that something is bad and wrong, then what? Public embarrassment points out the problem, but doesn't point out the solution, that being impulse control and empathy towards others, nor how to implement it if they didn't know how already. In fact, if I were to guess, knowing that everyone hates you and is willing to humiliate you without helping you to improve, isn't exactly going to make you act nicer towards them. I'm unsure as to whether she ever tried this or not, but perhaps the teacher should have talked with Alex one on one after class or between classes about WHY he does disruptive things, and with knowledge help figure out with him (and his mom as well) how to channel those urges into something more acceptable and productive to do during class. |
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n4mwd
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 08, 2008
Posts: 667
Location: Palm Beach, FL
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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I have friends that teach in that school system. Like I said, the press is being extremely unfair and biased against that teacher. The police already investigated and found no evidence of abuse. Still, the teacher will probably have to quit because of it even though she didn't do anything wrong.
I should point out that this area is a very pro-kid area. The DCF just took parental custody away from this two parent family's only baby because they were homeless and the baby looked sick. Seriously. Spank your kid too hard and you WILL lose your parental rights around here. |
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WonderWoman
Deinonychus
Joined: Jun 02, 2008
Age: 56
Posts: 356
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| n4mwd wrote: |
I should point out that this area is a very pro-kid area. |
Wonderful!
_________________
"Me voici donc seul sur la terre, n'ayant plus de frère de prochain d'ami de société que moi-même." Jean-Jacques Rousseau
"Do not think, 'I am alone.'" Sasaki Roshi
WonderWoman
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Spokane_Girl
I would walk 500 miles and I would walk 500 more
Joined: Jul 17, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 4225
Location: Benny & Joon town (I wish)
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| n4mwd wrote: | I have friends that teach in that school system. Like I said, the press is being extremely unfair and biased against that teacher. The police already investigated and found no evidence of abuse. Still, the teacher will probably have to quit because of it even though she didn't do anything wrong.
I should point out that this area is a very pro-kid area. The DCF just took parental custody away from this two parent family's only baby because they were homeless and the baby looked sick. Seriously. Spank your kid too hard and you WILL lose your parental rights around here. |
You still didn't tell me where you got this information about how the kid was acting
If this is all true, then I'd say this will be a hard lesson for the teacher. This will also be a lesson to all the other teachers who saw this too in the media. When they get a student who is that bad as Alex or worse, they will think twice before they decide to have that kid vote out of class and have every student list what they don't like about him/her. They will have to decide if this is how they want to be portrayed in the media since the news leaves out details and they don't tell the whole story of they make the same move this teacher did. They will also have to decide if they want to be portrayed wrong by parents because they will find out just by hearing the story from their own child because it happened to a student in their class or they heard it happening to someone in another classroom from other kids. Thank god they only have their students for one year unless they decide to teach a grade up, they could end up having that same student again.
Maybe you heard more to the story on TV or in the local paper since it happened in your area but because lot of us don't live in your area, none of us have heard the other side of the story since the media does tend to leave out details and not tell the whole story. It didn't even tell us how the kid was misbehaving, it only said he was misbehaving. I was thinking how so, was he doing autistic behavior (stimming, having a meltdown, refusing to cooperate because there was a change in the schedule, etc.) or was he misbehaving like a normal kid (picking on another student, not listening, talking back to the teacher, etc). Or did you know the kid in real life? It seems like you know the teacher in real life since you said she is a good teacher. |
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makuranososhi
Purple Monkey Dishwasher
Joined: May 13, 2008
Posts: 2401
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| n4mwd wrote: | The press did a wonderful job unfairly biasing the public against the teacher. She acted appropriately under the circumstances. The boy who has AS, also has a very severe form of ADHD and the stupid mother is one of those idiots that refuse to medicate her kids for ADHD. Meanwhile, when he was in the classroom, he was extremely disruptive to the other students. He rarely sat in his own chair and constantly shoved, pushed and kicked other students and their chairs and tables during class. The teacher was covering how elections work and when he returned from the principals office. She simply took the opportunity to allow the class to vote. It was also a clever way to let the boy know that his abusive behavior was not appreciated by his classmates.
If ANYBODY is to blame, its the boy's mother, not the teacher. She should have had him properly medicated. If I had a kid in that class, I would applaud the teacher for protecting my kids from such an abusive little boy.
That school is just a few miles from where I live. The teacher is a good teacher and not the monster the press has made her out to be. |
I'm sorry, but she did not act appropriately. Period, end of list. The responsibility of a teacher extends to all of her students, not just those he/she is able to manage efficiently and comfortably.
Your reference to the mother as 'stupid' is insulting and does little to demonstrate beyond a reactive statement. Medicating ADHD is not a guarantee of effectiveness, not all individuals are responsive to medication, and there is no mandatory treatment for that condition. Your viewpoint has disturbing connotations if applied to other scenarios; I'm sickened that you would prescribe such forced treatment for individuals, much less children. "Properly medicated"?!?! *speechless* I am also interested where you get your information; 'friends in the district' doesn't cut it, as it is as biased or more than the media coverage. Can't have it both ways.
If the boy was disruptive, there are processes in place to deal with that - to put it to a vote was wrong. It does not teach children at that age how elections work... damn it, most of my high school students don't understand the concept! One does NOT teach a concept at the expense of a child, or any individual. It is that simple. If the premise was to teach an example, then doing so in a manner that directly affects one singled-out child is grossly inappropriate. It was in no way, shape or form "clever"; it was a cop-out. If you can't bear the burden, then don't teach - there are too many bad teachers in place as it is.
The mother was in process of getting a diagnosis; do not presume that all diagnoses are concurrent, as many of the conditions described are covered under the umbrella of AS. Once again, we're on opposing sides on this one - if it were my son in that school, we'd be headed elsewhere.
M.
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He thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
From my heart and from my hand, why don't people understand my intentions...?
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roguetech
Deinonychus
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 35
Posts: 350
Location: Climax
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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Bottom line, a class room is not a democracy. The teacher is in charge of the students, not the students in charge of the students. If the child was disruptive, the teacher is the one who makes that decision. If she needs the students input, then she's an idiot. The idea that a vote is somehow fair, still boils down to it being a popularity contest aimed squarely at one student. The mere fact of having a vote will bias them. However, the point is not whether the vote was a "fair" reflection of the student's opinions, but that school is not for the popular only. Schools do not have opinion polls on whether a new student can attend class.
I also don't think school is for the medicated only. That "stupid" parent wants her child to be who they are, not sedate them so that they can fit in with the public school's idea of a model child. Public school is designed towards "normal" childern. Anyone who falls outside of that norm, should be medicated if a disruption (i.e. can't sit through an equal amount of boring lecture or work sheets as a "normal" student) and/or removed from the "normal" students if they don't learn at the same rate (i.e. don't learn as well from hours of boring lectures or work sheets).
Which brings us full circle. Unsuitably trained and qualified teachers are less likely to be able to deliver teaching in methods other than lectures and work sheets. This is less likely to maintain the attention of students outside the norm, which the teacher is not equiped to handle. Takes a real winner to do something so dumb as hold a popularity poll to determine if a child is far enough out of norm to not have enough friends in class to be able to stay. |
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Spokane_Girl
I would walk 500 miles and I would walk 500 more
Joined: Jul 17, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 4225
Location: Benny & Joon town (I wish)
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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Public schools are supposed to provide education for every student, especially for their needs. But if a child has a disability, they need to get a label (yes a diagnoses) to get put on the IEP so they can get the needs they need and get the education they need. It's also to protect them too like if a child with ADHD is getting restless because he or she had been sitting down for too long in class while the teacher is talking, they can get excused from class for a break, instead of getting punished for not sitting still like a normal student would.
This boy had no IEP. His mother was in the process of getting him a diagnoses for AS. Well he was getting tested for it and got diagnosed finally.
But what sucks about having a disability is public schools suck (they are worse than they were ten years ago) and private school are much better I heard but they don't do special education, so I am sure they don't do IEP. So as a parent you have no choice but to place your child in public school unless you can homeschool or find a school that are for kids with disabilities. There are schools that are for kids with autism, schools for kids with behavior disorders, schools for the deaf, etc. |
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