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Jainaday
in uncertain taste
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
Age: 24
Posts: 1348
Location: in the They
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 Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: |
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this was the thing that came up that made me want to start this thread. The reference is 1st Corinthians 11.
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the reference for veiling that you listed, from Corinthians, doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I first encountered it when I was a young teenager. .. the way I read it then was as a clear implication that women are as far below men as men below God. . (men should have short hair, less covering, as befits their station--because they are the glory of god; women should have long hair and a covering, as befits theirs, merely being the glory of men.) I was pretty pissed off. .. it made me want to cut my hair. |
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Manfrednissley
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: May 22, 2008
Posts: 28
Location: sw georgia, usa
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | Well, if you're referring to the epistles of Paul, we have to take those within their historical context- we don't exactly ascribe divinity to the early church fathers.
Anyways, Presbyterians in general are pretty liberal in Biblical interpretation. We don't take it literally, but we accept the idea of divine inspiration. |
huh? so what if you dont ascribe divinity to the early church leaders. but he bible is still divinly inspired.
wow just read a few of the other posts here. I am reading a lot of heretical statements! |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7897
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: a non-inflamitory question for any christians- |
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| Jainaday wrote: | Have you ever had any trouble accepting the inferior status of women that most common understandings of the bible imply?
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Flawed premise. You've placed an answer within the question itself, negating its purpose.
And thank you for being non-inflamatory. Few grace us with that.
_________________
I shaved off my goatee so that my wife could read my facial expressions better. She feels much happier and closer to me now. (Just thought I'd share this advice for any other bearded members.) |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 19
Posts: 4454
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Manfrednissley wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | Well, if you're referring to the epistles of Paul, we have to take those within their historical context- we don't exactly ascribe divinity to the early church fathers.
Anyways, Presbyterians in general are pretty liberal in Biblical interpretation. We don't take it literally, but we accept the idea of divine inspiration. |
huh? so what if you dont ascribe divinity to the early church leaders. but he bible is still divinly inspired.
wow just read a few of the other posts here. I am reading a lot of heretical statements! |
Everyone is orthodox to himself. Read John Locke's Letter Concerning Toleration. Also, some people have different ideas of what exactly "divine inspiration" really means.
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WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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Manfrednissley
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: May 22, 2008
Posts: 28
Location: sw georgia, usa
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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if you question the writtings of paul then you must question the gospels as well.
now dont give me, "well paul did not walk with Christ." must i remind you that paul not only followed christ he was blinded by christ?
good point ragtime.
btw jainaday did the righting of paul make you want to cut your hair or did your pride? if it is pride then that is sin.
| Quote: | oscuria wrote
Although I am not a Christian I understand why the other Gospels are not accepted: Because they do not carry a similar message. Consider the Jews falling upon a scripture from "their prophet" which said "Israel is not chosen, they have been mislead since Abraham" or "Ishmael would inherent the earth. He is greater than Isaac". These sentences if accepted would destroy their history and religion. |
um i am afraid you need to study the scriptures before you misquote something.
hey speckles before you accept the doctrine of anyone please do research of your own. |
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BazzaMcKenzie
Wild colonial man
Joined: Aug 22, 2006
Posts: 3702
Location: the Antipodes
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| # Alexander Lehrman, BibleTexts.com's guest commentator, comments (excerpted from http://www.bibletexts.com/qa/qa132.htm) wrote: |
Paul does talk about head-coverings for men and women. In the context of a few verses before Chapter 11 -- "Be without offense both to the Jews and to the Greeks and to the church of God," etc., Paul praises his addressees for remembering what he transmitted to them previously (11:2), and then he recapitulates what he transmitted to them (verses 3-9). But then he revises that, in light of what is true "in the Lord" (verse 11) and of the fact that "everything is from God" (verse 12, cf. also 10:31 "...you do everything to the glory of God"). And then comes the rest, with the gist that "the hair is given in place of a covering" to both men and women (verse 15; note that the KJV "her" in "is given her" is an addition, to be removed). In verse 16, I think what Paul is referring to when he says "we don't have such a custom," etc., is the liking to be contentious. This takes him to a discussion of "divisions" further on (verse 18 ff.). |
In any case, if Paul never met Jesus, where does his authority come from to say
| 1 Corinthians 11:1 wrote: | | Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you. |
Why should I keep Paul's ordinances?
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I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in.
Strewth!
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Speckles
Velociraptor
Joined: May 03, 2008
Posts: 448
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Manfrednissley wrote: | | hey speckles before you accept the doctrine of anyone please do research of your own. |
 Regarding treating women equally and not taking the bible literally, my church does have the exact same view as Presbyterians, at least the ones I know. Just because some of my beliefs are the same as Orwell's doesn't mean that I'm accepting his doctrine uncritically, or am accepting it at all. Though I supposed that if I moved to an area with no UCoC churches, I might start going to a Presbyterian one. But I don't see how that matters, or why it should indicate that I don't do research.
I'm confused at what you are getting at. |
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Manfrednissley
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: May 22, 2008
Posts: 28
Location: sw georgia, usa
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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here is why bazza!
Acts 9
1And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do."
God told Saul what to do! |
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Manfrednissley
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: May 22, 2008
Posts: 28
Location: sw georgia, usa
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Speckles wrote: | | Manfrednissley wrote: | | hey speckles before you accept the doctrine of anyone please do research of your own. |
Regarding treating women equally and not taking the bible literally, my church does have the exact same view as Presbyterians, at least the ones I know. Just because some of my beliefs are the same as Orwell's doesn't mean that I'm accepting his doctrine uncritically, or am accepting it at all. Though I supposed that if I moved to an area with no UCoC churches, I might start going to a Presbyterian one. But I don't see how that matters, or why it should indicate that I don't do research.
I'm confused at what you are getting at. |
your right i should have clarified a little. 
what i mean is in reference to God having a female conitation to his name in the OT. |
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BazzaMcKenzie
Wild colonial man
Joined: Aug 22, 2006
Posts: 3702
Location: the Antipodes
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, sort of like Catholics having to follow the Pope's edicts because he is a descendant of Peter
Where is it written that Jesus said that women must cover their heads or that God said that to Paul?
Isn't it just Paul, as a missionary, just building support for early churches by embracing local custom?
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I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in.
Strewth!
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Manfrednissley
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: May 22, 2008
Posts: 28
Location: sw georgia, usa
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| BazzaMcKenzie wrote: | Oh, sort of like Catholics having to follow the Pope's edicts because he is a descendant of Peter
Where is it written that Jesus said that women must cover their heads or that God said that to Paul?
Isn't it just Paul, as a missionary, just building support for early churches by embracing local custom? |
1. the pope is not nor has ever been a descendant of peter. if you can prove he is than show me.
2 God said it to paul
3. covering the heads of the women was NOT the local custom in corinth in fact that city was knowen for uncovered head women many of whom were prostitutes! so that argument is dead before it can start! picture this corinth was what new oreleans is today (not counting the past few years since the hurricane). it is a busy port with much promiscuity. |
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Vexcalibur
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Posts: 627
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:08 am Post subject: |
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How is that non-inflammatory.
Very few Christian churches actually take the bible seriously nowadays. else most christians would think the earth is flat, women are inferior, we should rest on Saturdays, plus tons of more non-sense.
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Mankind is not evil; itīs just misinformed ~ Charles Xavier |
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BazzaMcKenzie
Wild colonial man
Joined: Aug 22, 2006
Posts: 3702
Location: the Antipodes
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| Manfrednissley wrote: | 1. the pope is not nor has ever been a descendant of peter. if you can prove he is than show me.
2 God said it to paul
3. covering the heads of the women was NOT the local custom in corinth in fact that city was knowen for uncovered head women many of whom were prostitutes! so that argument is dead before it can start! picture this corinth was what new oreleans is today (not counting the past few years since the hurricane). it is a busy port with much promiscuity. |
1.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4179/is_20050406/ai_n13615304
However, the pope is revered not only for his Christian witness but also for the legacy that Catholics attribute to the papacy itself. Catholics believe that the pope is the vicar of Christ and is a historical and spiritual descendant of St. Peter, the disciple and first bishop of Rome.
2.
I phrased it badly. Paul also said (1Cor 4) "I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, so that you may learn from us not to go beyond what is written, so that none of you will be inflated with pride in favor of one person over against another."
Where is it written (other than Paul himself) that women must cover their head? Why can't covering one's head be a metaphore or custom, not a divine command.
3. So if I shave my head, I will be a better Christian? Its what's in your heart not what's on your head that makes you a better person/Christian.
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I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in.
Strewth!
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 19
Posts: 4454
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| Manfrednissley wrote: | if you question the writtings of paul then you must question the gospels as well.
now dont give me, "well paul did not walk with Christ." must i remind you that paul not only followed christ he was blinded by christ? |
False dichotomy. I accept the writings of Paul (and the Gospels) as authentic. I don't question that Paul followed Christ. But he wasn't infallible, he was human like the rest of us.
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WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 8977
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| Vexcalibur wrote: | How is that non-inflammatory.
Very few Christian churches actually take the bible seriously nowadays. else most christians would think the earth is flat, women are inferior, we should rest on Saturdays, plus tons of more non-sense. |
Christian churches take the Bible very seriously. |
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