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CottlestonPie
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Apr 25, 2008
Age: 24
Posts: 56
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 Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Which book of did Jesus write? When was the first New Testament book written? I have never heard of Jesus writing anything. The oldest New Testament books were written by Paul. The oldest gospel is Mark, and I think it was written a few decades after the death of Jesus. Scripture is confusing because there are so many authors. They have differing and sometimes conflicting views. I can't be sure anything that is in the Holy Bible was divinely inspired. It's all opinion. I take what I need and leave the rest. If I went by what I learned in church, I would be insane. I know, because I was insane until I started studying the Bible on my own. The only parts of the Bible that are worthwhile are the parts that tell you how to live a spiritual life. All the prophecies and descriptions of an afterlife and rules for conduct are meaningless unless they help you live a better life. People get too hung up on the Bible and use in all sorts of ungodly ways. You can interpret the Bible to support anything you want to do. Example- Slavery in the U.S., Anti-miscegenation laws, and segregation. These were all supported by Christians who used the Bible to justify their beliefs. A more modern example is the Westboro Baptist Church. They go to the funerals of soldiers waving flags like "Thank God for IED's" and "God Hates Fags" and "Your Son is in Hell." It's biblical; it doesn't mean that's it's right. For this reason, I no longer consider myself a Christian. Either you accept the whole religion or you don't accept any of it. Either you try to live the Christian life or don't call yourself a Christian. That's my opinion. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2066
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| CottlestonPie wrote: | | Which book of did Jesus write? When was the first New Testament book written? I have never heard of Jesus writing anything. The oldest New Testament books were written by Paul. The oldest gospel is Mark, and I think it was written a few decades after the death of Jesus. Scripture is confusing because there are so many authors. They have differing and sometimes conflicting views. I can't be sure anything that is in the Holy Bible was divinely inspired. It's all opinion. I take what I need and leave the rest. If I went by what I learned in church, I would be insane. I know, because I was insane until I started studying the Bible on my own. The only parts of the Bible that are worthwhile are the parts that tell you how to live a spiritual life. All the prophecies and descriptions of an afterlife and rules for conduct are meaningless unless they help you live a better life. People get too hung up on the Bible and use in all sorts of ungodly ways. You can interpret the Bible to support anything you want to do. Example- Slavery in the U.S., Anti-miscegenation laws, and segregation. These were all supported by Christians who used the Bible to justify their beliefs. A more modern example is the Westboro Baptist Church. They go to the funerals of soldiers waving flags like "Thank God for IED's" and "God Hates Fags" and "Your Son is in Hell." It's biblical; it doesn't mean that's it's right. For this reason, I no longer consider myself a Christian. Either you accept the whole religion or you don't accept any of it. Either you try to live the Christian life or don't call yourself a Christian. That's my opinion. |
How many until the Gurus of Sikhism wrote Scripture? Not even Muhammad wrote scripture. These are reciters and as Prophets they recite. It is not their duty to write, but the duty of the followers to memorize.
What is meant by divinely inspired? The Laws are useful if only to live a lawful life. The reason why we have had many men who have deviated is because they don't pay attention to the laws instead they follow their emotions (indeed many say the Law is unimportant today). There is nothing in the bible that can enforce any of the slavery laws that were in place in America, nor the Anti-miscegenation laws (How many of the Prophets did not marry outside their tribe?).
Westboro Baptist church is as much a church as the Church of Satan.
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I'm no democRAT, I'm a republiCAN! |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 19
Posts: 4454
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| Jainaday wrote: | | How have you come to the conclusion that biblical translation has been reliable? |
Because we still have ancient manuscripts against which modern Bibles can be readily compared, and they match up quite well. The textual evidence for accurate preservation and transmission of the Bible is overwhelming.
Many people like to claim that the Bible has been "rewritten," but they don't typically like to provide any evidence for these claims.
Also, from one English translation to another, although they were translated by different people, they still tend to come out pretty close together, indicating that the overall meaning is probably not significantly corrupted in translation.
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WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 8977
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| This discussion is a perfect example of how it is possible to prove any point by looking at a thing from a different angle. I'm surprised the Christians on WP haven't been accused of being ritualitsic cannibals or drinkers of human blood. |
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Speckles
Velociraptor
Joined: May 03, 2008
Posts: 448
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | This discussion is a perfect example of how it is possible to prove any point by looking at a thing from a different angle. I'm surprised the Christians on WP haven't been accused of being ritualitsic cannibals or drinkers of human blood. |
Yeah, communion can be pretty brutal  |
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 8977
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: |
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Especially if you drop the wafer on the floor.  |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7897
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | slowmutant wrote: | | What's a YEC? |
Young-Earth Creationist. Someone who believe the Earth came is 6000 years old and that evolution is an atheistic conspiracy to destroy Christianity. One interesting estimate places the date of creation at October 23 4004 BC at 9:00 AM. |
But I'm not a YEC.  |
Maybe not the variety that believes in a date of creation at 23-10-4004BC, but unless you were just playing devil's advocate for about two solid weeks of nonstop debate, you are a YEC. Or are you one of those "old-Earth creationists?"
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 Such attempts to pigeonhole-and-stereotype... I'm just a creationist; that's all.
| Orwell wrote: |
Either way, my initial comment on the hypocrisy of your post stands. |
Well, I intentionally avoid putting hypocrisy in my posts, so your comment has no real grounds.
You've got a little vendetta against me that blinds you to the actual content of what I write,
and biases you into misconstruing it in only the most negative ways.
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I shaved off my goatee so that my wife could read my facial expressions better. She feels much happier and closer to me now. (Just thought I'd share this advice for any other bearded members.) |
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monty
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 05, 2007
Posts: 2518
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: |
Many people like to claim that the Bible has been "rewritten," but they don't typically like to provide any evidence for these claims.
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Actually, the chair of religious studies at UNC Chapel Hill has written and spoken widely on this. His book "Misquoting Jesus" documents many such problems with rewriting and translation. While many of these issues are not profound, some do affect doctrine in major ways. |
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 8977
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 11:57 am Post subject: |
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I doubt we've misquoted Jesus in any profound way. I can't prove it of course, but it's a hunch. After 2000 years of translation, copying, transliteration, losing, finding, forgetting, quarelling, I take it as given that what sits on my bookshelf is not a word-for-word historical reconstruction.
Is it possible to have a 100% authentic copy of anything predating both the printing press and common literacy? |
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monty
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 05, 2007
Posts: 2518
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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Ah - here's an interview with the author of Misquoting Jesus - heard it on the radio when it first came out. Interesting guy - worth a listen if anyone is interested in the Bible. The interview is 38 minutes, and there are excerpts from his book.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5052156 |
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Jainaday
in uncertain taste
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
Age: 24
Posts: 1348
Location: in the They
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 2:22 am Post subject: Re: a non-inflamitory question for any christians- |
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| oscuria wrote: | | Jainaday wrote: |
To some of us, the bible is literature, not scripture.
My premise is what I intended it to me. I'm not asking about the content of the bible, only about how people deal with certain interpretations of it which I have commonly encountered. If you have a less pre-emptive way to ask that, I'm curious to know what it is. |
If the bible is only literature then what are you worrying about?
Translations in my opinion are NOT reliable. They are interpretations. Unless a translation has excerpts, quotes, original verse, definitions, and separate information of the mythologies, it is not trustworthy. It must have a thorough explanation of the text. |
I can't be concerned with the cultural implications of one of the most influential texts to be assembled in human history?
The majority of Americans profess to some level and variant of Christianity. Not all of them are biggoted morons. . . in fact, I'd really like to believe that most of them aren't.
It seems worthy of effort in understanding.
By the way, thank you, everyone, for your input; I really appreciate it. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2066
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:14 am Post subject: Re: a non-inflamitory question for any christians- |
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| Jainaday wrote: | I can't be concerned with the cultural implications of one of the most influential texts to be assembled in human history?
The majority of Americans profess to some level and variant of Christianity. Not all of them are biggoted morons. . . in fact, I'd really like to believe that most of them aren't.
It seems worthy of effort in understanding.
By the way, thank you, everyone, for your input; I really appreciate it. |
The cultural implications shouldn't be much of a concerned today, unless you live amongst the Bedouins or farming cultures.
Define bigotry? Women aren't the same as men. They are not meant to dress the same nor act the same. Women are assigned special roles as are men. In fact you had a very specific set of rules which were meant to be followed. You must look at the history and culture in which the bible was written.
Today in a society that values individualism, you need not worry about these implications because they are no longer forced upon you by the majority.
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Jainaday
in uncertain taste
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
Age: 24
Posts: 1348
Location: in the They
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:33 am Post subject: |
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I think it's worth while to try to understand how other people approach important issues, even if they aren't going to force their views on me.
Also, I disagree with pretty much everything else you said as well. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2066
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| Jainaday wrote: | I think it's worth while to try to understand how other people approach important issues, even if they aren't going to force their views on me.
Also, I disagree with pretty much everything else you said as well. |
Why and How so? Women are not men and because of such are assigned different roles.
If you believe the bible is infallible, you are meant to follow it. If you do not believe the bible is infallible, why are you worrying? You said "To some of us, the bible is literature, not scripture." What is the point in having and putting faith in such literature? Scripture is meant to be infallible. Literature is not.
It really doesn't make sense to me. The way I see it, it is to ensure the integrity and not loosen any fabric between men, women, and children. Once they become unwoven, then so does society.
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greenblue
¸.·´´¯`··.¸.·´
Joined: Mar 26, 2007
Posts: 7908
Location: Home
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | Well, yes, except when proven fact comes into play.
Truth is not a democracy. It is exclusive by its very nature. |
| Quote: | | This is a very odd comment to come from a YEC. |
I agree, wether is YEC or just Creationist, It is also odd that comment comming from someone who wants Creationism to be teached in public schools, kinda contradictory here, if he does.
| Quote: | | Opinions are well and good, but they're not the end-all determiner of reality. |
Exactly, and well, your opinions are opinions as well, and you seem a lot to give your own opinions as "facts".
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Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods. ~Einstein. |
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