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makuranososhi
Purple Monkey Dishwasher
Joined: May 13, 2008
Posts: 4714
Location: Transitional
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 Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | Believe it or not, Dubya is the lesser of these two evils. Satan is the chief fallen angel, Opponent of God, whereas George Herbert Walker Bush is just a man. |
...or is he a Freemason? Could be a disciple of Baal, ya know... *sigh* It all depends on your point of view.
M.
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He thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
From my heart and from my hand, why don't people understand my intentions...?
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 30
Posts: 11411
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| oscuria wrote: | | slowmutant wrote: | | Believe it or not, Dubya is the lesser of these two evils. Satan is the chief fallen angel, Opponent of God, whereas George Herbert Walker Bush is just a man. |
If Bush is just a man, then Satan is just as meaningless.
How then can the meaningless ever be considered an opponent to the Supreme? Do you consider an ant to be your mortal enemy? |
Neither Bush nor Satan are meanigless IMO. If Satan were meaningless, God and all His loyal angels would have to be meaningless as well. Obviously this is not the case.
An ant could very possibly be my mortal enemy if I were another ant from a neighbouring colony. To humans, ants are pests. They are not our equals. But mortal enemies? If you make a living as an exterminator, I suppose they could be. But that's kinda silly. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2158
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | oscuria wrote: | | slowmutant wrote: | | Believe it or not, Dubya is the lesser of these two evils. Satan is the chief fallen angel, Opponent of God, whereas George Herbert Walker Bush is just a man. |
If Bush is just a man, then Satan is just as meaningless.
How then can the meaningless ever be considered an opponent to the Supreme? Do you consider an ant to be your mortal enemy? |
Neither Bush nor Satan are meanigless IMO. If Satan were meaningless, God and all His loyal angels would have to be meaningless as well. Obviously this is not the case.
An ant could very possibly be my mortal enemy if I were another ant from a neighbouring colony. To humans, ants are pests. They are not our equals. But mortal enemies? If you make a living as an exterminator, I suppose they could be. But that's kinda silly. |
The loyal angels are meaningless. This. however, would not make HIM meaningless. HIS meaning is not based on the existence of the angels, nor is it based on our existence. If we never had come to existence, He would still Be. Understand what it means by "I AM".
We are here by HIM, remove us and HE still remains.
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 30
Posts: 11411
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| God created the angels. How could they be meaningless if God created them? And why even debate this? It's meaningless. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2158
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | God created the angels. How could they be meaningless if God created them? And why even debate this? It's meaningless. |
And He created Satan, how could creation ever be an opponent to the Creator?
If I challenge you, that can be a fight, If I challenge the Creator I am set to lose. Why then put too much thought on the frivolities of a perceived fallen angel?
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 30
Posts: 11411
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Lucifer became Satan because he chose to rebel against God. That indicates that even the angels have free will. God created Satan, yes, but indirectly. If you attend a Bible study or read Scripture on your own, you will discover what we really believe about Satan. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2158
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:05 am Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | Lucifer became Satan because he chose to rebel against God. That indicates that even the angels have free will. God created Satan, yes, but indirectly. If you attend a Bible study or read Scripture on your own, you will discover what we really believe about Satan. |
Indirectly created Satan? That seems to me as if He was being lazy that day or wasn't paying attention.
An Omniscient Creator indirectly Creating? This must be further explained to me.
Please, go on.
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 30
Posts: 11411
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| A Creator creates something else that can think for itself and therefore can act independantly of its Creator. The angels in Heaven remain there because they choose to be there. The fallen angels in Hell are there because of a choice they made. |
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2158
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | A Creator creates something else that can think for itself and therefore can act independantly of its Creator. The angels in Heaven remain there because they choose to be there. The fallen angels in Hell are there because of a choice they made. |
Can they not then choose to remove themselves from Hell and find rest in Heaven?
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 30
Posts: 11411
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:20 am Post subject: |
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Some choices are binding. The Kingdom of Heaven is eternal, and, once founded by Satan and his fallen angels, Hell is eternal also. Why would the demons want to reconcile if they have such a good thing going for them in Hell?
All these things happen for a reason. If there were no hell and no one to tempt humans into sin, how would our theology work? |
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makuranososhi
Purple Monkey Dishwasher
Joined: May 13, 2008
Posts: 4714
Location: Transitional
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:29 am Post subject: |
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A short aside... part of the problem I find in trying to discuss such matters with fervent believers is that their vocabulary works in absolute authority - "Hell is eternal" where more appropriately it would be "It is my belief that Hell is eternal." That becomes a double-edged sword, as it is difficult to have a discussion with those who words do not reflect acknowledgment of the questions, as well as it implies a knowledge of thing - knowledge which supersedes faith and in turn debases what was intended. The rigidness of the belief structure belies the fragile nature within.
M.
_________________
He thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
From my heart and from my hand, why don't people understand my intentions...?
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2158
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | Some choices are binding. The Kingdom of Heaven is eternal, and, once founded by Satan and his fallen angels, Hell is eternal also. Why would the demons want to reconcile if they have such a good thing going for them in Hell?
All these things happen for a reason. If there were no hell and no one to tempt humans into sin, how would our theology work? |
Rhetorical question. I don't believe in the theology you adhere to. It does not make sense to me, and it is my duty to understand it.
All things happen for the reason He made so.
The Demons have emotions too, how are we sure they are all truly evil? Nothing would prevent them from offering themselves to the Creator if they believed, correct? Would He who saves all who ask of Him not save one who is giving himself fully just because of his abode and previous actions?
Are they born in Hell or do they choose hell? If so, what is hell to the ones who wished it and how can it ever be punishment?
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oscuria
Verbal Guerrilla
Joined: Feb 01, 2008
Posts: 2158
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| makuranososhi wrote: | A short aside... part of the problem I find in trying to discuss such matters with fervent believers is that their vocabulary works in absolute authority - "Hell is eternal" where more appropriately it would be "It is my belief that Hell is eternal." That becomes a double-edged sword, as it is difficult to have a discussion with those who words do not reflect acknowledgment of the questions, as well as it implies a knowledge of thing - knowledge which supersedes faith and in turn debases what was intended. The rigidness of the belief structure belies the fragile nature within.
M. |
Well, you can always denounce the affirmative, or affirm what has been denounced.
Who amongst us can consider you wrong for doing so? Our own bias speaks for itself.
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