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slowmutant
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't call me a fool. I don't appreciate being called a fool. Our politics are somewhat different, but this does not make me a fool. Griff, you make it hard on yourself and your cause by being unlikable. I can't sympathize with you because I do not like you.
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slowmutant
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Same-sex union or marriage? Which is it that gay people really want? A same-sex union is not marriage, and marriage is not sex-sex union. If same-sex couples want to get married, they must do it in a church before God and community. Judging from WP members, gays tend to be atheistic and opposed to religion in general. So let them have non-religious civiil unions. The way I see it, you can't insist on atheism and getting married in a church.
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Phagocyte
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slowmutant wrote:
Will the hate & violence simply drop off after the gays get their right to marry?

I doubt it. When you win, you still lose.


If the gays lose either way, why not at least have principles? I may be rather pragmatic, but my pragmatism still takes the back seat to my sense of morality. Even if I do not have a physical victory, I still need to sleep at night.
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skafather84
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slowmutant wrote:
Don't call me a fool. I don't appreciate being called a fool. Our politics are somewhat different, but this does not make me a fool. Griff, you make it hard on yourself and your cause by being unlikable. I can't sympathize with you because I do not like you.


he's being melodramatic, just roll with it.

it does make you sound kinda foolish when you say things about violence still continuing regardless of if gay marriage is legal or not. but that's taking it from the perspective that you're using as an argument against gay marriage. if you're just stating it, you're just coming off as a "captain obvious".
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slowmutant
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Call me Captain Obvious. Just don't call me late for dinner!

I roll with many things, you have no idea! Laughing


Last edited by slowmutant on Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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skafather84
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slowmutant wrote:
Same-sex union or marriage? Which is it that gay people really want? A same-sex union is not marriage, and marriage is not sex-sex union. If same-sex couples want to get married, they must do it in a church before God and community. Judging from WP members, gays tend to be atheistic and opposed to religion in general. So let them have non-religious civiil unions. The way I see it, you can't insist on atheism and getting married in a church.



i really don't think anyone cares about what it's called if they're able to have the same rights and privileges offered in heterosexual marriage.

they'll probably call it a marriage but the legal papers can say union...well...not right now because unions and marriages are two different legal terms.

they're not insisting on getting married in churches that don't allow it nor am i. freedom of religion means that your religion can be as bigoted and hateful as you want so long as you don't physically harm others, incite others to do physical harm, or harm their property.
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slowmutant
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you think the church is bigoted and hateful now, you shoulda seen it during the Middle Ages!
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skafather84
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slowmutant wrote:
If you think the church is bigoted and hateful now, you shoulda seen it during the Middle Ages!



not all. i'm using it more to emphasize the freedom of religion point more than anything.


edit: i think there are obviously some that are and some that encourage their parishioners to be active in issues that the church really shouldn't be promoting either way....but not all. not by far.
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monty
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slowmutant wrote:
Same-sex union or marriage? Which is it that gay people really want? A same-sex union is not marriage, and marriage is not sex-sex union. If same-sex couples want to get married, they must do it in a church before God and community. Judging from WP members, gays tend to be atheistic and opposed to religion in general. So let them have non-religious civiil unions. The way I see it, you can't insist on atheism and getting married in a church.


First, marriage is not exclusively religious. It is something found in atheist societies like Cuba, the former Soviet Union, China etc. It is also found in polytheistic societies where people get married standing before the Gods, not God. These polytheist ceremonies are considered valid in the US - if someone gets married in India, when they come to the US, that wedding is valid. The US states also recognize a whole variety of non-religious marriages, performed by ship captains, judges and court clerks. In some states, any person can apply to be a Deputy Commissioner of Marriages to perform a legal wedding (the commission is often for only 1 day). You also seem to be ignoring the whole concept of common law marriage, where people who live together as if they are married actually become married without any ceremony or paperwork (usually after 7 years).

Second, your assumption that most gays are atheists is without support. It is true that many churches have pushed them away, but there are gay and gay-friendly congregations in many denominations. Is it possible to have a discussion of gay marriage when some people can't get beyond simple stereotypes of gays??
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slowmutant wrote:
Same-sex union or marriage? Which is it that gay people really want? A same-sex union is not marriage, and marriage is not sex-sex union. If same-sex couples want to get married, they must do it in a church before God and community. Judging from WP members, gays tend to be atheistic and opposed to religion in general. So let them have non-religious civiil unions. The way I see it, you can't insist on atheism and getting married in a church.

Atheists are permitted to marry in this country. Your argument fails.
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slowmutant
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Atheists are permitted to marry in this country. Your argument fails.


In atheist churches, by atheist ministers, yes of course. In the eyes of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and in the eyes of man. Can't believe I forget about that. Rolling Eyes
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skafather84
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slowmutant wrote:
Quote:
Atheists are permitted to marry in this country. Your argument fails.


In atheist churches, by atheist ministers, yes of course. In the eyes of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and in the eyes of man. Can't believe I forget about that. Rolling Eyes



you seem to have a huge misconception in what this whole argument is about.
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monty
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slowmutant wrote:
Quote:
Atheists are permitted to marry in this country. Your argument fails.


In atheist churches, by atheist ministers, yes of course. In the eyes of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and in the eyes of man. Can't believe I forget about that. Rolling Eyes


Well, there are ethical societies and other organizations that espouse no particular religious beliefs that have a social function similar to churches. These have long performed marriage ceremonies. Albert Einstein was a fan of the ethical society movement.

http://www.ethicalstl.org/
http://www.ethicalsociety.org/
http://www.phillyethics.net/


Last edited by monty on Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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slowmutant
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I do not. I'm trying to explain the differece weddings and unions. Also I'm advancing the notion that marriage really is a religious affair. Exceptions do exist, of course.

The people who try to take marriage out of a religious context are probably the same folks who would like to have it for non-traditional couples.

Dislocate, cheapen, corrupt.

An obvious ploy.


Last edited by slowmutant on Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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LKL
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slowmutant wrote:
If same-sex couples want to get married, they must do it in a church before God and community.


If and when I get married, I surely won't do it in a church. Even if church were a requirement, there are plenty of churches out there that aren't inherently bigoted: American Anglican, for example, and the Unitarians.

Quote:
So let them have non-religious civiil unions. The way I see it, you can't insist on atheism and getting married in a church.


So you don't think that any atheists with marriage licenses are actually married?
And you would be ok with religious gays getting married, so long as they did so in a church?
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