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Apple_in_my_Eye
Snowy Owl
Joined: May 08, 2008
Age: 40
Posts: 158
Location: planet of improbable realities
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 Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Nan wrote: | | But it is true, for a whole lot of people - I'd be willing to bet on that. I don't believe Ms. P said anything about "how it is for most male aspies" - she was speaking about herself and how her life in the UK could have been if her gender had been male. She was commenting on what her life as someone who was quite bright could have been and wasn't talking about yours and either your intellectual qualities or choice of work/profession/socioeconomic status. |
If the refutation is "she would've suceeded because she's more brilliant," then this discussion has become impossible. A lot people think they're brilliant when they're actually just very bright. And there's a big difference between being brilliant or bright and suceeding in something in the real world. Academia has this idyllic reputation that I don't think is as true as a lot of people think. Social ability always matters, even in Physics. And there are plenty of brilliant and successful NT's. To be so exceptionally brilliant that it makes up for a significant lack of social ability is going to be pretty exceptional.
(The article also gives no information to back up the assertion that she is so exceptionally brilliant; no mention of IQ score (not that I'm a fan of IQ meaning much, but it would've been something), education, work history, ...nothing. It doesn't even mention any self-study.)
At the university I went to, a fair number of my classmates scored above the 90th percentile on the Physics GRE. Everybody there was more-or-less brilliant. And not one of them struck me as being on the spectrum. That's the competition. And they are the majority. There is no Aspie Paradise there.
The only thing different about her being a woman is that she never to got to get in the game to compete. (And yes, that is unfair.) But to claim "I would've been a nuclear Physicist if I'd just had the chance" is hubris.
The part about a supportive wife magically materializing also strikes me as someone talking about competing in a system they don't know anything about. There is a social hierarchy males are judged on. ASD people don't typically do too well with that. There are lots of brilliant Physicist NT's who do do well with that. So why would a woman marry the ASD scientist when plenty of "normal" brilliant scientists are available?
I love the stories about a woman finding a ASD guy who is special to her and being with him, but I have a bad feeling for every one story like that there are a hundred where she dumps the guy at the first sign of "wierdness" and marries Captain Normal.
I am sure there are many hard things about being a ASD woman that I don't understand. But I do try to remember that when the grass looks greener on that side of the fence. I used to think ASD women had the relationship stuff easier. (And in some ways, still do.) But after reading so many awful stories (here and other places), I've come to to the conclusion that it's not easier at all. It's just a different shade of 'hard.'
Then again... if I'd been a woman, right now I'd be a happy stay at home mom with a great house and brand new SUV all bought for me by my rich, handsome and eternally thoughtful husband. I wouldn't have to work and could spend all day with my obsessions while the nanny and the maid took care of the kids and housework.
That could be me, if only I'd had the chance... I mean, that's how it is for most women, right?   |
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pbcoll
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 15, 2007
Posts: 1818
Location: England
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: |
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Good points, Apple_in_my_Eye. I studied physics, I'm in a science department, I've known a fair number of people from other fields such as biology and maths. The following is the reality about academia, not the fairytale aspie-paradise version:
-Most scientists have normal social skills. The vast majority show no signs of being on the spectrum. There are more socialites among scientists than eccentric loners, even in physics.
-Networking is massively important for an academic career. In fact in my experience networking is more important in academia than for teaching in the for-profit private sector. Yes, if you're exceptionally brilliant you might get by with poor social skills - but I'm sure in the private sector if you're very competent at a particular job somebody will hire you, too.
-In some fields of academia, competition is so tough that even exceptionally intelligent men with good social skills have trouble getting a long-term position. In these fields, for an aspie to succeed you'd need intelligence in the genius range.
| Quote: | The part about a supportive wife magically materializing also strikes me as someone talking about competing in a system they don't know anything about. There is a social hierarchy males are judged on. ASD people don't typically do too well with that. There are lots of brilliant Physicist NT's who do do well with that. So why would a woman marry the ASD scientist when plenty of "normal" brilliant scientists are available?
I love the stories about a woman finding a ASD guy who is special to her and being with him, but I have a bad feeling for every one story like that there are a hundred where she dumps the guy at the first sign of "wierdness" and marries Captain Normal. |
Absolutely right. The only guy in my department that might be on the spectrum is married, but the ladies consider him exceptionally physically attractive, and he is exceptionally intelligent. And his wife doesn't help him with social functions; he avoids them as much as possible and that's certainly cost him in terms of career advancement.
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I neither take revenge, nor beg for favours. (Rabindranath Tagore)
I am the steppenwolf that never learned to dance. (Sedaka) |
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Jainaday
in uncertain taste
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
Age: 24
Posts: 1348
Location: in the They
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:22 am Post subject: |
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While "normal social skills" may be the norm even in science, it's hard to believe that no one in a given program was on the spectrum. After all, "the spectrum" includes attention disorders.
I would attribute this to poor powers of observation. |
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Apple_in_my_Eye
Snowy Owl
Joined: May 08, 2008
Age: 40
Posts: 158
Location: planet of improbable realities
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| pbcoll wrote: | -In some fields of academia, competition is so tough that even exceptionally intelligent men with good social skills have trouble getting a long-term position. In these fields, for an aspie to succeed you'd need intelligence in the genius range.
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Yeah, I just read another APS prediction about another upcoming shortage of Physicists. 
As I think about it, maybe things were very different in the 50's and 60's -- with the plentiful research positions and lots of easy funding around. Maybe a lot of the problem is due to the (decades long) job market squeeze in the field. If demand was high, there would be a compensating reason to "put up" with someone's quirks (as I gather sometimes happens in I.T.). In the absence of demand, "extraneous" factors like social politics will mean more. Still seems like the good socializers are always going to have some edge, though. |
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groovemeister
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Mar 29, 2006
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| An excellent read. |
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pbcoll
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 15, 2007
Posts: 1818
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Apple_in_my_Eye wrote: | | pbcoll wrote: | -In some fields of academia, competition is so tough that even exceptionally intelligent men with good social skills have trouble getting a long-term position. In these fields, for an aspie to succeed you'd need intelligence in the genius range.
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Yeah, I just read another APS prediction about another upcoming shortage of Physicists.
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I don't know what such predictions are based on, but in particle physics only the top 2% or so of people even get jobs in the field. In other fields it's not as bad but there's no shortage - the postdoc position was largely invented as a plaster for the problem of a lack of permanent positions in science. There's the joke that the competition for a post in the Max Planck Institutes is so fierce that to get a job as a postdoc you have to be a genius, to become a professor you have to be able to walk on water, and to become a director of one of the institutes, only God and Jesus Christ are qualified. In the US it's easier to get a physics job than anywhere else in the world, but it's getting harder, not easier. Most people in the developed world that study physics end up doing things that are really engineering, or work in unrelated things like the financial sector. In the Third World, most either emigrate, become schoolteachers or end up driving taxis or selling books on the streets (contrary to popular belief in the First World, much of the Third World has a surplus of skilled labour).
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I neither take revenge, nor beg for favours. (Rabindranath Tagore)
I am the steppenwolf that never learned to dance. (Sedaka) |
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dongiovanni
Sea Gull
Joined: Aug 29, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 224
Location: North-east Ohio
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:04 am Post subject: |
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Just putting this out there:
Aspie women probably do have it harder. Now I wonder why that could be. Could it be because all women have it harder? Seriously, we talk about aspie male vs. aspie female, but we never incorporate any male vs. any female. How many aspie women do you think are in abusive relationships? How about the fact that women generally get paid less. I'd hate to just point out the pink elephant in the living room, but don't you guys think that patriarchy might play into this to some extent?
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"Weia! Waga! Woge, du Welle,
walle zur Wiege! Wagalaweia!
wallala, weiala weia!"
I won't translate it because it doesn't mean anything. |
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MathThinkerSpain
Blue Jay
Joined: Jul 10, 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Spain
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
I disagree with this lady who wrote those feelings and infos. It is like she was looking for pity for herself.
In my family I got 2 sisters one NT one AS.
The NT girl is living of social help with little small money, trying to survive.
The AS girl is living with lots of thousands € per month. 
Well the NT girl helped her, as child to grow in a agressive enviroment.
AS girl grew quickly in a top nuclear physic scientist, not in Spain of course, as she got some International Grants. 
Now, she has a top job in a University and also teaches Maths. She lives in luxury Apartment, luxury life, lots of properties, and she has a friendly top model NTs male who stand her. She lives in his happy-yellow-sunshine world. I am not sure if its good for next steps of life for her, but at short-time, she is today having great time. I do not find serious but it is her choice.
I disagree with krex also, we come fron a medium-low family and got Grants for studiying.
I disagree also with lot of people here.
Aspie girls have more chances of everything because they "closed" mind is not so closed they retain something of NTs, more than boys, and keep AS thing.
It depends of environment, helps, and IQ/Intelligence/Skills.
By the way I am looking for an AS girl to match, because "extreme lovely and helpful" NTs girl have already been tested, I wanted to match/test real AS girl, as I got some extra Psicological-Managing Skills, nowadays, I had not before.
1+1=
CIAO
| krex wrote: |
There are women scientist and writers from 100 years ago, but I think the majority came from wealthy families that allowed them to be "excentric". Aspie females who cam from poverty were most likely going to end up doing drudge work or prostitution if they didn't have the "social graces" or dowery to attract a mate. |
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LadyMacbeth
They made me do it.
Joined: May 28, 2007
Age: 21
Posts: 1565
Location: In the girls toilets at Hogwarts, washing the blood off my hands.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Apple_in_my_Eye wrote: |
The part about a supportive wife magically materializing also strikes me as someone talking about competing in a system they don't know anything about.
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Erm.. did you even READ the article?! She's an aspie woman; OF COURSE she doesn't know anything about the male hierarchy in the social world. All she was saying was that she often daydreamed about it.. is it wrong to dream of a better life?
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We are the mutant race!!!! Don't look at my eyes, don't look at my face... |
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CanyonWind
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 12, 2006
Posts: 1394
Location: West of the Great Divide
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:33 am Post subject: |
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I guess I got things totally wrong here.
Somewhere or other, I got the impression that a lot of aspies, both male and female, have a lot of problems with the educational environment at all levels, problems with careers, and problems with relationships.
I sorta figured it had something to do with being an aspie, but now I know different.
If an aspie woman has problems with education, career, or relationships, it's because she's a woman.
If an aspie man has problems with education, career, or relationships, it's because he's either dumb or lazy.
I'm glad they cleared up that misunderstanding, but now that I'm enlightened I don't see any need for an aspie forum website, since nothing matters except gender and aspie men don't experience any limitations.
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Thou out of heaven's benediction comest
To the warm sun.
Approach, thou beacon to this under globe.
Nothing almost sees miracles but misery.
- from King Lear |
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anbuend
Oak-Type Autie
Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 3312
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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Limitations like all-or-nothing thinking?
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"We may seem in the gutter from up there where you are but maybe you don't know we still see the same stars." -Donna Williams |
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SIXLUCY
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
Age: 31
Posts: 895
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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It depends on the indivdual but I donot beleive aspie women do it harder. Men are already more emotionally disadvantged in society irrespective of having Aspergers.
I know this for a fact because I am female on the autism spectrum > my son is male on the autism spectrum and people are alot less affectionate and more emotionally cold to him than they are me and this is not fair! |
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intense
Deinonychus
Joined: Jul 10, 2008
Posts: 351
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:37 am Post subject: |
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In my opinion it is never a good thing to generalise about who get's an easier life, every case is different and society at large will of course influence these differences in many different ways, but I think which sex you are has very little to do with how poorly you are treated, abuse is abuse injustice is injustice and feelings are feelings.
I have met women who have had the most appalling experiences just as I've met men who have suffered just as badly no need to compare.
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Well here I am.......I think! |
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SIXLUCY
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
Age: 31
Posts: 895
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:44 am Post subject: |
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I would have to agree with that. I have three sisters and I am the only one with autistic disorder and I was the only one that was seriously abused by my Mum and stepdad both physically and sexually.
I beleive I was picked on not so much becuase I was a girl but because I more was vunerable to being abused because I was different. |
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intense
Deinonychus
Joined: Jul 10, 2008
Posts: 351
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:12 am Post subject: |
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| SIXLUCY wrote: | I would have to agree with that. I have three sisters and I am the only one with autistic disorder and I was the only one that was seriously abused by my Mum and stepdad both physically and sexually.
I beleive I was picked on not so much becuase I was a girl but because I more was vunerable to being abused because I was different. |
Yes that's allways the way with bad people, they have this knack for spotting vunerable people knowing they are less able to fight back.
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