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marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Age: 28
Posts: 1513
Location: North West United States
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 Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | What is the definition for Theory of Mind?
Who has trouble with ToM and why? I resent your resentment.  |
Why don’t you answer that for yourself? Quit being so sanctimonious all the time. You're just a conservative contrarian sh*t stirrer. |
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cosmiccat
Supporting Member
Joined: Apr 06, 2007
Posts: 1787
Location: In my body on my 66th trip around the sun
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Quoting Anemone:
| Quote: | | There's a double standard in definitions: one definition for us, another one for everyone else. Don't believe them when they tell you you don't have it without carefully studying the definition used in different types of research first. Some of the research studies I read really did come across as nonsense. I can't believe some of what gets published. I can't help but thinking that it's sheer bigotry. |
What seems scary to me is that so many professionals we go to for help believe what has been published even when we offer them good reason not to believe it (from our own personal experience and research) - and they base their observations and diagnoses on half-assed studies and publications.
_________________
I accept chaos. I am not sure whether it accepts me. Some people are terrified of the bomb. But then some people are terrified to be seen carrying a modern screen magazine. Experience teaches us that silence terrifies people the most. Bob Dylan |
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 8977
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Theory of Mind is real, and some people lack it. Having ToM or lacking is not a mere function of AS vs. NT. |
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Spokane_Girl
I would walk 500 miles and I would walk 500 more
Joined: Jul 17, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 4235
Location: Benny & Joon town (I wish)
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:44 am Post subject: |
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I think NTs lack it too but the difference is we do it more often than them. Why do you think misunderstandings occur? That's one of the reasons why it happens.
I have to disagree about aspies being able to read other aspies. I think we struggle just the same. I have failed to understand another aspie or why they are so upset by what I said. But either it was them or me. Hard to tell in the community, especially in the none ASD community. Even other aspies have misunderstood me before or failed to understand what I am saying. Same crap I have gotten from none ASDs too. |
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Danielismyname
I stab my own back
Joined: Apr 03, 2007
Posts: 6054
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:57 am Post subject: |
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Theory of mind is recognizing that someone can have different thought processes than you when observing the same situation, and the ability to recognize that others are "real".
How many of you think people are "real"? In addition, how many have thought that others should know what you know without having a need to communicate it, and then getting flustered when you can't seem to get them to see what you so clearly see?
These latter two are why those with Autism/Autism with adequate speech have the social deficits that they do (lacking in empathy too; a lack of nonverbal cues don't affect much). |
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mysterious_misfit
Velociraptor
Joined: Apr 25, 2008
Age: 27
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| Danielismyname wrote: | Theory of mind is recognizing that someone can have different thought processes than you when observing the same situation, and the ability to recognize that others are "real".
How many of you think people are "real"? In addition, how many have thought that others should know what you know without having a need to communicate it, and then getting flustered when you can't seem to get them to see what you so clearly see?
These latter two are why those with Autism/Autism with adequate speech have the social deficits that they do (lacking in empathy too; a lack of nonverbal cues don't affect much). |
I know people are real. But I do have trouble with the second point. I don't readily volunteer information, then I forget wether or not I've told different people something. |
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kclark
Velociraptor
Joined: May 11, 2007
Age: 27
Posts: 460
Location: NE Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: |
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I need you to clarify what you mean by knowing people are real.
I understand they exist as people objects with mind and soul. Thus they are real in the physical, mental, and spiritual sense. I know they exist physically because I sense them, and mentally and spiritually because that is what I was taught. I don't have any basis for these two other than being told it. But other than stating that I don't really know what real is.
As for expecting others to know and act the way I do, I have trouble with that a lot. I hate telling the same story to several people because I feel stupid saying the same thing again even though it is to different people. A drastically different setting will eliminate that feeling.
Just yesterday I was playing a new game that only I really knew the rules to. It wasn't till halfway through when I realized that I didn't bother to tell them some of the basics because it was so obvious to me having read about the game thoroughly for the last couple weeks. I only mentioned the rule because I was wondering why they were not using the ability in the game. They all were confused and asked what ability? I had simply assumed that they knew about the ability because the group of people I play similar games with know about a similar rule. It never dawned on me that these people never played the other similar game and really had no way of knowing about that ability.
Also after the game my brother was asking me how I felt about it. He then mentioned that one of the guys felt kinda bad that his character did not really get a chance to do his thing due to the way the opponents were reacting. I never even thought that might have happened. |
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LabPet
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 05, 2007
Posts: 1828
Location: Alaska
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| kclark wrote: | I need you to clarify what you mean by knowing people are real.
I understand they exist as people objects with mind and soul. Thus they are real in the physical, mental, and spiritual sense. I know they exist physically because I sense them, and mentally and spiritually because that is what I was taught. I don't have any basis for these two other than being told it. But other than stating that I don't really know what real is.
As for expecting others to know and act the way I do, I have trouble with that a lot. I hate telling the same story to several people because I feel stupid saying the same thing again even though it is to different people. A drastically different setting will eliminate that feeling.
Just yesterday I was playing a new game that only I really knew the rules to. It wasn't till halfway through when I realized that I didn't bother to tell them some of the basics because it was so obvious to me having read about the game thoroughly for the last couple weeks. I only mentioned the rule because I was wondering why they were not using the ability in the game. They all were confused and asked what ability? I had simply assumed that they knew about the ability because the group of people I play similar games with know about a similar rule. It never dawned on me that these people never played the other similar game and really had no way of knowing about that ability.
Also after the game my brother was asking me how I felt about it. He then mentioned that one of the guys felt kinda bad that his character did not really get a chance to do his thing due to the way the opponents were reacting. I never even thought that might have happened. |
I could have almost written what you wrote here! There are real applications for (lack of) ToM, and I am the same as you in this way.
_________________
same nightmare, different nap
Lab Pet, therapist slayer
Lab Pet's video: Autism is Synonymous with Science: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYelVlA7kDw |
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CMaximus
Sea Gull
Joined: Nov 04, 2007
Age: 25
Posts: 224
Location: Staring at the Sea
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Danielismyname wrote: | Theory of mind is recognizing that someone can have different thought processes than you when observing the same situation, and the ability to recognize that others are "real".
How many of you think people are "real"? In addition, how many have thought that others should know what you know without having a need to communicate it, and then getting flustered when you can't seem to get them to see what you so clearly see?
These latter two are why those with Autism/Autism with adequate speech have the social deficits that they do (lacking in empathy too; a lack of nonverbal cues don't affect much). |
Yes, this is me. I've learned to be very, very careful with people by always taking outside chances with how they'll react to my actions because of it; very safe. This ensures I'll be seen as merely eccentric, at the worst, but is also a pretty severe yet subtle limitation on my ability to connect with others past being acquaintences. |
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Spokane_Girl
I would walk 500 miles and I would walk 500 more
Joined: Jul 17, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 4235
Location: Benny & Joon town (I wish)
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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When I was little I thought everyone thought the same as me and I didn't know other people had feelings. I expected people to know the same things I knew. if I liked doing something, I thought others like it too. I wouldn't understand how can someone not like something I like.
But I've gotten better at it. I now everyone has feelings, everyone's minds work different, everyone has different feelings so different things might offend them even though they don't offend me which makes the world complicated. And also the fact treat others the way you like to be treated, if you don't like what people do to you, don't do it to others. Treat them how you want to be treated. |
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VMSnith
Raven
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 102
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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The proposal that Aspies lack "Theory of Mind" (awareness of another's point of view) was nothing more than a hypothesis.
It is bullcrap - that hypothesis has been repeatedly disproven (see sample reference below, there are many.)
OASIS literature and other non-research grade sources contain mostly misinformation about Asperger's. Certain notions are floated, and they persist in the literature. WHen the notions are scientifically disproven, people tend to say "interesting, clearly we need more research on this", shrug, and keep repeating them.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1378848
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Two studies are reported in which the ability of people with Asperger's syndrome to understand problems of the type "Peter thinks that Jane thinks that ..." tested. The results showed that in contrast to younger or more handicapped autistic individuals, Asperger subjects were able to solve problems of the type just outlined, i.e. that they possessed a second-order theory of mind. When asked to explain their solutions however, they typically did not use mental state terms but did not differ in this respect either from non-handicapped or socially impaired, chronic schizophrenic controls. The implications of the results for current cognitive theories of autistic impairment are discussed.
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Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 2840
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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Who came up with the lie that people are "Real".
They are real in the sense "things" are real. They are a warm body.
The hairless ape, IQ 100, education half way through the Eighth Grade with a C-.
They do not have enough of a knowledge base to know what I know, and communicating it is not possible.
Real does not mean of value, or has a right to my world, my posessions, or the knowledge I have spent years gathering. Existing grants no more right than being allowed to exist, but not on my time.
People are real, that is why we have prisons, guns, locks, and the right to chose who we put up with.
ToM is more of that New Age Psychobabble religion crap. It is based on the christian model, you should join our church, tell us all about yourself, so we will know when you are at church and what you have worth stealing.
Yes, we should have empathy, go to the prisons when the people are being released, have a car and money and try to make new friends. A stranger is just a new friend waiting to happen. Bring gifts, a shovel and some duct tape, help your new friends make it in the world.
I always look at, "What's in it for me?" There are a lot of games where the only way to win is to not play.
Empathy is knowing that people are too dumb to make it on their own, need something to steal from someone, and inviting them to your house to see your rare gold coin collection, then accepting an invitation to go shoot pool with their brother on the other side of town.
Empathy is understanding that your co workers change numbers on your reports because they really need that promotion.
Empathy is understanding that others want what you have, or just to destroy it, and should not have to do the work to gain the same for themselves, when they can just take it.
Empathy is food for greed.
I understand that others have a different thought process, when observing the same situation, I know they are real, so I never let them see anything of value, nor tell them anything they can use against me.
There are a few who see life as a mutual exchange where both gain, and real people who need empathy.
Psychobabble is a confidence game, for first you must gain the mark's confidence, those who cannot be manipulated, lack ToM. Scientology calls it being clear. It is based on trust, then violating that trust.
ToM,
Understand that others are real, and think different, trust them with something of value, then try to get it back.
Look at Psychobabble, they get offices, jobs, paychecks, we get blamed.
It fits the model of a confidence game, with some new words, but the same results. It is about their need for money.
"Treat them like people,
they act like dogs,
treat them like dogs,
they act like well behaved dogs."
I have a Drill Instructor or employer view of apes,
they will perform to minimal standards, and few are worthy of promotion.
The Drill Instructor starts from the view they are worthless meatbags, and tries to make something of them.
The Employer demands job performance, or refuses them in the first place, or gets rid of them.
So who needs ToM,
Thieves,
Serial Brides looking for a fourth rich husband,
Confidence Games,
Psychobabble,
the worst, for Autistics are supposed to guess their needs and supply them with a long term living.
LabPet, the sweetest and most wonderful person, and Slayer of Therapist.
Does Tony "What about my needs?" Attwood think I should be bringing him flowers?
Lack of job performance is grounds for dismissal.
5,000,000 Autistic adults are being ignored because they do not support the Theory of Mind Doctrine of the Psychobabble Religion?
Psychobabble has no Science, it is based on Confidence games and Brainwashing tactics.
Autism is not a mental health issue, it is a full set of perceptions that are common on Wrong Planet.
Tony Attwood, et al, have an economic need to place us on the bottom of their pecking order, and blame us for their lack of performance. It is an NT New Age Religion, sending Missionaries to tell us that we were created by mistake, 5,000,000 times.
Wrong Planet shows a sub species, linked by a shared range of perceptions, with an evolving Culture.
Occam's Razor, we were wrong, the same way, 5,000,000 times, or NT's were wrong once?
Which lacks ToM? |
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marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Age: 28
Posts: 1513
Location: North West United States
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| "Theory of Mind" is overly simplistic. It implies that our problems are due to some cognitive deficit which they aren't. The problem has to due with our emotional reactions, not reasoning or awareness. Because we don't react emotionally to people in the typical way it seems those researchers assume that we lack fundamental understanding/awareness of “other minds”. That seems ludicrous to me. |
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nettiespaghetti
Deinonychus
Joined: May 23, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 345
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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I'm glad this thread was started, because even though I know I'm "different", i.e. not being NT, I certainly don't feel that I should carry the weight of misunderstandings solely on my shoulders. It's not always me!
_________________
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein |
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Sora
Love all, trust a few
Joined: Sep 16, 2006
Age: 20
Posts: 2900
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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I think I know what Danielismyname means.
I didn't took people for real until I was old. I realised people thought and felt things when I was 10 years old.
Prior to age 10, due to that people's actions and statements did not make sense, I was convinced that they could neither be thinking nor feeling. I first thought they were robots and when I could recognise people enough, I thought they were primitive.
Funny enough, I didn't consider family in this. They were... not 'people' to my mind.
And after I turned ten, it took a part of 4th grade, whole 5th grade and then 6th grade until I had fully realised that these thingies were... well, real people. Thinking, feeling, intelligent like me. Just different. (Though I had the difference part figured out years ago, because I thought everybody was stupid and robotic and I wasn't.)
Again, the irony of realisation is ugly. I realised that people felt and thought after being severely bullied by students/teachers at school. That didn't get me to appreciate the fact that people could think and feel much.
So... I definitely believe in theory of mind. It made a huge difference for me.
(Not saying everyone on the spectrum lacks it.)
I think it's got nothing to do with intelligence. I am/was gifted and didn't understand that people were real like me.
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The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. Terry Pratchett |
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