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| Who is the Greatest U.S President of the 20th Century |
| Clinton |
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4% |
[ 3 ] |
| George H.W Bush |
|
1% |
[ 1 ] |
| Ronald Reagan |
|
16% |
[ 11 ] |
| Jimmy Carter |
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7% |
[ 5 ] |
| Gerald Ford |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Richard Nixon |
|
0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Lyndon B Johnson |
|
0% |
[ 0 ] |
| John Fitzgerald Kennedy |
|
6% |
[ 4 ] |
| Dwight Eisenhower |
|
1% |
[ 1 ] |
| Harry Truman |
|
3% |
[ 2 ] |
| Franklin Delano Roosevelt |
|
28% |
[ 19 ] |
| Herbert Hoover |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Calvin Coolidge |
|
7% |
[ 5 ] |
| Warren G Harding |
|
0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Woodrow Wilson |
|
0% |
[ 0 ] |
| William Taft |
|
0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Theodore Roosevelt |
|
22% |
[ 15 ] |
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| Total Votes : 66 |
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Message |
gamefreak
Quit M$ cold turkey and loving it!!!!
Joined: Dec 31, 2006
Age: 19
Posts: 1597
Location: Citrus County, Florida
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 Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | gamefreak wrote: | | Macbeth wrote: | | Which one did almost nothing to be noted by history apart from quietly running the country in an efficient manner? That one.. I choose him. |
Dwight Eisenhower was the man, all he did was serve his two terms. Create the Interstate System and fought a few times for racial equality. |
Well, there was the part about starting the Vietnam war. And also helping brutal dictators like Mubutu come to power. That would probably be a negative. Plus the continued expansion of big government. I prefer Silent Cal. |
The Vietnam War was started in 1959 when communists tried to overthrow the South Vietnese Gov`t. No more than a few troops were sent there until LBJ esculated the war under the Gulf Toiken Resolution in 1964. Though Eisenhower didn't start the war. A few troops started to pour in[Like 50 or so.] though no more were sent into 1964.
Reference- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_war |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 8369
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| gamefreak wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | gamefreak wrote: | | Dwight Eisenhower was the man, all he did was serve his two terms. Create the Interstate System and fought a few times for racial equality. |
Well, there was the part about starting the Vietnam war. And also helping brutal dictators like Mubutu come to power. That would probably be a negative. Plus the continued expansion of big government. I prefer Silent Cal. |
The Vietnam War was started in 1959 when communists tried to overthrow the South Vietnese Gov`t. No more than a few troops were sent there until LBJ esculated the war under the Gulf Toiken Resolution in 1964. Though Eisenhower didn't start the war. A few troops started to pour in[Like 50 or so.] though no more were sent into 1964.
Reference- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_war |
Ignoring that Ike was the first to commit the US to military action in Vietnam (meaning yes, he did start the Vietnam War) you might also be interested in looking at the causes of the war. Namely, the fact that we were propping up a brutal dictator who deliberately modelled his rule after Hitler's, rather than, say, allowing free elections and self-determination for the people of Vietnam as agreed in international treaties.
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FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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gamefreak
Quit M$ cold turkey and loving it!!!!
Joined: Dec 31, 2006
Age: 19
Posts: 1597
Location: Citrus County, Florida
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| Sargon wrote: | I'm still waiting for people to explain why excatly Carter is the greatest president of the 20th century (or second best in history).
| Quote: | | Hoover is at the bottom towards Grant, Buchanuan, and Nixon. Some liberal polls even put Carter as one of the greatest. [I think Carter is the 2nd Best President in History.] |
These rankings are probably based on popularity, right? If so, it does highlight this weirdness people have when ranking their Presidents. Aside from Watergate, Nixon's presidency wasn't that bad really, particularly in the foreign arena, such as with China and leaving Vietnam (his domestic policy left some to be desired, but that is true for many Presidents). FDR's policies were basically an expansion on Hoover's (further making this kinda "weird" since most people claim to dislike Hoover's policies, but love FDR's despite them being so similar) and then some more fascist-like policies. |
Alright, so way did Harry Truman get a record low approval rating of any president [Until just 2 monthes ago with Dubya.] but got High Marks for historians as one of the best. People are ignorant and never think behind the economic situation at the moment and never take time to look at facts.
Reference- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Truman
Carter, was one of a kind. His energy policies were phemonenal when at came to the Energy Crisis at the time. His efforts to bring honesty back to governemt after a harsh decade of political turmoil. Even if the moron americans hated the man and elected Reagan in 1980 he still tried to release the Hostages in Iran and did just sadly before Reagan entered office .[ OL' BOO-HOO-HOO, HE GOT US OUT OF THE 1980 SUMMER OLYMPICS IN MOSCOW. HE IS SUCH AN EVIL , VICOUS MAN WHO SHOULD BE IMPEACHED.]
Honesty the part about the Olympics was grand. He pulled the U.S out and the Billions of dollars those soviet bastards would have got from the richest country in the world didn't even reach the Bering Straight. Serves them right for invading a country like Afganistan for their own greedy purpose.[No other presidnet was brave enough to pull off that move.]
Carter also increased the amount of the money going to the professional white-collar industries instead of the military. He was also the 1st president to acknowlege the tensions to Panama for forcing their government to build a canal there for all the countries to use.
The Economy wasn`t his problem. Other Professionals in the government had a lot to do with that. The war in Vietnam was also causing economic problems due to its massive debt. Also the economy actually got far worse under Reagan [Unemployment Wise] until the effects of Supply-Side started to kick in around 1984.
Carter also increased the buget to construction workers to build better roads under his Energy Policy.[To increase MPG most veichles get on smooth concrete.] Carter also increased Public Transit funding along with the start of a bike- lane system in all the major cities
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So Yes Jimmy Carter was a great president in most cases. Also unlike his conservative rivals like Bush and Bush Sr. he teaches Sunday School at a church in Plains, Georgia. Not just get drunk and do illegial drugs every Sunday Morning and talk to conservatives while high about and the policies that are being established under his dictatorship to all the Church Attenders. |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 8369
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:30 am Post subject: |
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Carter's economic policies were terrible, and his "solution" to the energy crisis bordered on fascism. He supported dictators like Mobutu and Robert Mugabe (who is still a problem today). He also began our tradition of arming/training Muslim terrorists and all of our underhanded dealings that have destabilized the Middle East and paved the way for the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. And he reinstated draft registration.
Yep, Carter was a fantastic President. 
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WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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Pandora
Cat Lady
Joined: Jun 18, 2005
Age: 48
Posts: 4684
Location: Townsville
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:42 am Post subject: |
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I would argue that most of those initiatives were state owned. Each state is responsible for their own public transit network; the only infrastructure that comes from the federal coffers is when the railways, highways, airways, shipping etc cover the whole country. So, any roads in California that aresn't major highways that join up with the other states are California's responsiblity.
The war in Vietnam was technically over by the time Carter became president, due to the surrender of the South in 1975. The North actually claimed victory in that, and the soldiers who returned were treated like second class citizens. BTW, the conflict started as early as 1949 or 50, when the Dutch, French and English were trying to broker peace.
Oh, and sporting boycotts are a complete waste of time. All they do is hurt the competitors who have trained for years to get into these events, and the general population who need the diversion. The governments of the boycotted nations (Russia in 1980 and South Africa from 1970 til 1990) could give a stuff about the boycott, to them it's 'who cares?', and the games go on as usual.
_________________
Break out you Western girls,
Someday soon you're gonna rule the world.
Break out you Western girls,
Hold your heads up high.
"Western Girls" - Dragon
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Dox47
Phoenix
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Joined: Jan 29, 2008
Age: 27
Posts: 1246
Location: Seattle Area
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:17 am Post subject: |
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Carter was more naive and misguided than anything, at least in my opinion. Jimmy meant well, but I feel that he made us look incredibly foolish to other countries, and undermined our authority abroad. We are still trying to rebuild the CIA's skilled manpower after what his appointee, Admiral Stansfield Turner did in what is internally know as the Halloween Massacre.
The damage that he did to America's image is my biggest issue with Carter, he made us seem so touchy-feely and ineffective, and I believe that this directly led to much of the trouble that we are still experiencing today. Take the hostage crisis, for example. Jimmy negotiated, tried some half-assed military action, and eventually made concessions to the Iranians in order to free the hostages. How does it look when the most powerful country on earth is making concessions to third world extremists? Someone tried that once with the Russians in I believe Beirut, know what they did? They took their own hostages from the kidnapper's families, and started sending them body parts! Those hostages where returned right quick, with something akin to an apology. Now I'll admit, the method may have been crude, but the results speak for themselves. The point is that the Russians knew how to "negotiate" from a position of strength, rather than kowtow to a rabble wearing tea towels on their heads. We aught to have blown up something important to them before even coming to the table, at the very least, just to have shown that we meant business. Blowing up Khomeini would have been a good start...
Anyway, I digress. I tend to view Carter as a wide eyed idealist that may be perfectly suited to running charities and observing elections and whatnot, but had no business running a country, let alone this one. He had lofty ideals, but was ineffective as a political operator. To call him a good president is a stretch, the greatest of the Twentieth Century an impossibility.
BTW, I've refrained from mentioning Billy Carter, his eponymous beer, or Jimmy's fight with a swamp rabbit, lest anyone accuse me of taking cheap shots. That being said, here's a picture of Jimmy valiantly fighting off a rabbit with an oar!
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 8369
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:57 am Post subject: |
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| Dox47 wrote: | | Take the hostage crisis, for example. Jimmy negotiated, tried some half-assed military action, and eventually made concessions to the Iranians in order to free the hostages. How does it look when the most powerful country on earth is making concessions to third world extremists? Someone tried that once with the Russians in I believe Beirut, know what they did? They took their own hostages from the kidnapper's families, and started sending them body parts! Those hostages where returned right quick, with something akin to an apology. Now I'll admit, the method may have been crude, but the results speak for themselves. The point is that the Russians knew how to "negotiate" from a position of strength, rather than kowtow to a rabble wearing tea towels on their heads. We aught to have blown up something important to them before even coming to the table, at the very least, just to have shown that we meant business. Blowing up Khomeini would have been a good start... |
Agreed. Rather than "negotiate" the way Carter did, the more effective response is to bomb something and say "Do what we say, or you'll get more where that came from." The only concession we should offer is permitting them to live after messing with us.
| Quote: | | Anyway, I digress. I tend to view Carter as a wide eyed idealist that may be perfectly suited to running charities and observing elections and whatnot, but had no business running a country, let alone this one. He had lofty ideals, but was ineffective as a political operator. To call him a good president is a stretch, the greatest of the Twentieth Century an impossibility. |
Hm. His propping up of dictators undermines my credulity for claims of idealism on Carter's part. Plus his support for radical Islam. To call him a good president is a load of bull, the greatest of the Twentieth Century a bad joke.
| Quote: | | That being said, here's a picture of Jimmy valiantly fighting off a rabbit with an oar! |
Hell, if he can't manage to use the resources of the most powerful nation in human history in any effective manner against third-world rabble, it's little surprise that he struggles in battle against a rodent.
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WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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Cyanide
Leader of Shadaloo
Joined: Sep 25, 2006
Posts: 1835
Location: Twin Cities, MN. Formerly OR.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| skafather84 wrote: |
ronnie's only accomplishment was getting more crack into black neighborhoods. |
Hey, that's not all he did!
He also dramatically raised our debt with his failed "Reaganomics" policies. |
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gamefreak
Quit M$ cold turkey and loving it!!!!
Joined: Dec 31, 2006
Age: 19
Posts: 1597
Location: Citrus County, Florida
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:38 pm Post subject: Drinking Kool Aide |
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The Carter near depression was caused by the Fed choking off the money supply to stop the double digit inflation that started during the Nixon administration (Google Ford's Whip Inflation Now campaign. The inflation was caused by using borrowed money to fund the Vietnam War, then the bonds came due.
Orwell, do you know what facism means? How does Carter's energy policies fit this?
A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism."
American Heritage Dictionary, 1983
or in El Duce's words:
" Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of State and corporate power."
Benito Mussolini (1883-1945), Fascist Dictator of Italy
"We stand for the maintenance of private property... We shall protect free enterprise as the most expedient, or rather the sole possible economic order."
Adolph Hitler
for the scary part
Fascism is on the march today in America. Millionaires are marching to the tune. It will come in this country unless a strong defense is set up by all liberal and progressive forces... A clique of U.S. industrialists is hell-bent to bring a fascist state to supplant our democratic government, and is working closely with the fascist regime in Germany and Italy. Aboard ship a prominent executive of one of America's largest financial corporations told me point blank that if the progressive trend of the Roosevelt administration continued, he would be ready to take definite action to bring fascism to America."
former U.S. ambassador to Germany William Dodd in 1938 |
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monty
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 05, 2007
Posts: 3158
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | Carter's economic policies were terrible, and his "solution" to the energy crisis bordered on fascism. He supported dictators like Mobutu and Robert Mugabe (who is still a problem today). He also began our tradition of arming/training Muslim terrorists and all of our underhanded dealings that have destabilized the Middle East and paved the way for the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. And he reinstated draft registration.
Yep, Carter was a fantastic President. |
Every president that presided over rapid increases in the price of oil presided over an economic mess.
Draft registration - a good idea. Even Bush is afraid to use the draft, because it clearly isn't warranted today, and it would lead to widespread protests in a 60s style. But if circumstances arose and the sh!t hit the fan, it would be good to have the draft system already set up.
Also, re the tradition of arming and training Jihadis .... have you seen the Tom Hanks film "Charlie Wilson's War" - very interesting, informative. The Afghan Jihadis were nothing until Mr. Wilson got them surface-air missiles and anti-tank weapons. |
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gamefreak
Quit M$ cold turkey and loving it!!!!
Joined: Dec 31, 2006
Age: 19
Posts: 1597
Location: Citrus County, Florida
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| monty wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | Carter's economic policies were terrible, and his "solution" to the energy crisis bordered on fascism. He supported dictators like Mobutu and Robert Mugabe (who is still a problem today). He also began our tradition of arming/training Muslim terrorists and all of our underhanded dealings that have destabilized the Middle East and paved the way for the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. And he reinstated draft registration.
Yep, Carter was a fantastic President. :roll: |
Every president that presided over rapid increases in the price of oil presided over an economic mess.
Draft registration - a good idea. Even Bush is afraid to use the draft, because it clearly isn't warranted today, and it would lead to widespread protests in a 60s style. But if circumstances arose and the sh!t hit the fan, it would be good to have the draft system already set up.
Also, re the tradition of arming and training Jihadis .... have you seen the Tom Hanks film "Charlie Wilson's War" - very interesting, informative. The Afghan Jihadis were nothing until Mr. Wilson got them surface-air missiles and anti-tank weapons. |
Well yeah, Example Nixon won a huge landslide victory in the 1972 election. The economy seemed to be fixed during the time due to the ending of the Vietnam War. However in late 1973 when the Oil Crisis started and the economy tanked thats when everybody started looking at the Watergate Scandal again.[ If the Scadal were to happen in a time of a good economy and during the ending of the Vietnam War Nixon wouldn't even have to resign.] |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 8446
Location: Omnipresent
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| gamefreak wrote: | | The Carter near depression was caused by the Fed choking off the money supply to stop the double digit inflation that started during the Nixon administration (Google Ford's Whip Inflation Now campaign. The inflation was caused by using borrowed money to fund the Vietnam War, then the bonds came due. |
I would argue that the inflation was not due to borrowing but rather due to looser monetary policy in post-war conditions than prior. The issue is that stagflation does not exist in a Keynesian, fiscally oriented framework, but that is what we had under Carter. Stagflation is often given the theoretical foundation of the long run phillips curve, which is impacted by the money supply more so than most things.
| Quote: | | Orwell, do you know what facism means? How does Carter's energy policies fit this? |
I think he is using fascist interchangeably with interventionist, and doing so in reference to the governmental actions taken by Carter that he views as alien to a market-based policy.
| Quote: | A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism."
American Heritage Dictionary, 1983
or in El Duce's words:
" Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of State and corporate power."
Benito Mussolini (1883-1945), Fascist Dictator of Italy
"We stand for the maintenance of private property... We shall protect free enterprise as the most expedient, or rather the sole possible economic order."
Adolph Hitler
for the scary part
Fascism is on the march today in America. Millionaires are marching to the tune. It will come in this country unless a strong defense is set up by all liberal and progressive forces... A clique of U.S. industrialists is hell-bent to bring a fascist state to supplant our democratic government, and is working closely with the fascist regime in Germany and Italy. Aboard ship a prominent executive of one of America's largest financial corporations told me point blank that if the progressive trend of the Roosevelt administration continued, he would be ready to take definite action to bring fascism to America."
former U.S. ambassador to Germany William Dodd in 1938 |
You are cherry picking quotes and not analyzing the historical nature of fascism.
The first quote has a lot of truth if we look to see what it means, it does not mean a market, but rather a system where government intervenes to protect favored corporations as we actually saw in the fascist nations.
The 2nd quote is true, and can be seen with how these nations controlled handled their systems of production.
Quote #3 is actually at variance with quotes 1 and 2, because governmental intervention stands against a private property system. Not only that, but to pick it out fails to bring to recognition that the Nazis were also the National Socialists, and that Nazi policies stand at very very strong odds with libertarian markets. The fact that highly noted capitalistic theorists Mises and Hayek, both Austrian, avoided the Nazis and even wrote arguments against their system should be some measure of proof against the notion that fascist = market.
Finally, that last quote is true, and it is true because FDR was so feared by the industrialists. If you just look at what FDR did, you have to recognize that he acted radically in his increase in the budget deficit and in his number of make-work programs, and did so totally at variance with the actions of past presidencies, and even his original campaign against Hoover where he attacked Hoover for his high government spending. I mean, if you were an industrialist at the time, fascism would have sounded like a good idea given the successes of Italy and Germany in dealing with the depression.
Last edited by Awesomelyglorious on Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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gamefreak
Quit M$ cold turkey and loving it!!!!
Joined: Dec 31, 2006
Age: 19
Posts: 1597
Location: Citrus County, Florida
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Cyanide wrote: | | skafather84 wrote: |
ronnie's only accomplishment was getting more crack into black neighborhoods. |
Hey, that's not all he did!
He also dramatically raised our debt with his failed "Reaganomics" policies. |
The Debt was the only problem Reagan had besides bringing more crack into bad neighborhoods. |
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gamefreak
Quit M$ cold turkey and loving it!!!!
Joined: Dec 31, 2006
Age: 19
Posts: 1597
Location: Citrus County, Florida
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Sargon wrote: | | I voted for Cal (wonder who the other 2 people are aside from Orwell). I'd agree with Orwell on FDR and the depression; it is quite amazing how policies that ultimately failed and brought about greater disaster are hailed as great successes today (and judging from the poll, it looks like the man is also viewed by many as one of the greatest presidents). If Bush were more popular (and there was some "serious" event such as the great depression and WW2), I wonder if his policies would be viewed as great successes, ceteris paribus. |
Didn't Silent Cals Hands-Off approch cause the Great Depression.[Greedy Buisnesses cashing off the Bull Market.[ |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 8446
Location: Omnipresent
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| gamefreak wrote: |
Didn't Silent Cals Hands-Off approch cause the Great Depression.[Greedy Buisnesses cashing off the Bull Market.[ |
Well, the issue with the Great Depression was that there was a monetary shock that caused everything to tumble down. I do not think that Calvin Coolidge can really be blamed for that so much as I do not think anything he did really impacted financial services in a manner so that money supply would effectively decline leading to the deflationary spiral known as the Great Depression. |
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