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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 13715
Location: Room 101
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 Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| LTP wrote: | | What about internal pressures? Much of our current state is the result of competition between humans. Communication, social domination, many of our expressions and socialization in general are partly or wholly useful in intrahuman conflict. Financial wealth, esteem etc still play a big role in the mating game. It's not as in your face as hunting hunting big game but conflict still goes on today. |
That all sounds like sexual selection in competition for mates, which I addressed later in my post.
| Quote: | | You also forgot that we are hardly impervious to external pressures. Is humanity impervious to disease, what about the issues global warming might present? Our lives are tenuous at best anything that upsets the current equilibrium could be catastrophic. |
The human population is large enough that isolated disease outbreaks aren't going to cause a bottleneck event (besides, we have constructed an environment for ourselves where that's not usually a huge issue), and I don't see what global warming has to do with differential human reproductive success.
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 23
Posts: 13715
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| stochastic wrote: | | Orwell, because of contraception, and because of a profound development of communication, sexual selection is almost irrelevant also. Basically anyone who wants to have children can find a mate on the internet. |
If your claims are true, then it would seem the only trait being selected for is desire to have children.
| Quote: | | It is logical to assume that since autism has survived, and is even relatively common, if it is genetic then it either increased chance of survival for either the individual or the tribe, or the same genes that cause autism can also cause a different result which is conducive to survival. |
Not necessarily, plenty of relatively common variations are neutral or harmful. How many of us have a genetic predisposition to poor eyesight? And in any case, chances for survival are irrelevant to discussion of evolution. Darwinian fitness refers only to reproductive success. There are plenty of arthropod species where males will risk their lives for a chance to reproduce.
| Quote: | | As a neurological difference, I think that autism is becoming a very favorable gift in the emerging age of lifelong learning and highly specialized fields. If I had the choice I would choose to intensify most of my autistic traits. |
Same here, but the issue is whether "favorable gift" refers specifically to reproductive success. Aspies may easily be able to enjoy career success in their specialized fields, but that doesn't matter if they die childless.
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LTP
Raven
Joined: Jun 14, 2008
Age: 21
Posts: 122
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | LTP wrote: | | What about internal pressures? Much of our current state is the result of competition between humans. Communication, social domination, many of our expressions and socialization in general are partly or wholly useful in intrahuman conflict. Financial wealth, esteem etc still play a big role in the mating game. It's not as in your face as hunting hunting big game but conflict still goes on today. |
That all sounds like sexual selection in competition for mates, which I addressed later in my post.
| Quote: | | You also forgot that we are hardly impervious to external pressures. Is humanity impervious to disease, what about the issues global warming might present? Our lives are tenuous at best anything that upsets the current equilibrium could be catastrophic. |
The human population is large enough that isolated disease outbreaks aren't going to cause a bottleneck event (besides, we have constructed an environment for ourselves where that's not usually a huge issue), and I don't see what global warming has to do with differential human reproductive success. |
Global warming does not effect reproduction? If what it predicts comes true we should be seeing unheard of changes in our enviroments. Available land, water food, oil would be severely diminished. Wars would break out as governments get desperate. It gets more somber if you believe in the dead ocean theory since that would mean the food chain partially broke down. If you believe some of the more radical predictions we should lose about 3/4 of our population over the next century or two if we do nothing to dampen global warming.
Humanity is less isolated then it's ever been before. Theres no reason to believe the next epidemic will be isolated. The bubonic plague wiped out what 34% of europe? American indians suffered 97-98% casualty rates. America has the most advanced response plan put into place in case of a major break out like that and most of the authorities agree we would still be pretty helpless.
Then we can get into some of the more wacky doomsday scenarios. Freak solar flare, asteroid collisions, Nuclear war, biological war. Reports of male fertility dropping by 50% over 100 years with no decline in this trend. Humanity has not yet reached a point where it does not have to seriously consider how safe it is as a whole. |
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Jayman
Sea Gull
Joined: May 26, 2008
Posts: 200
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| I certainly believe that people with Asperger's especially are part of a new evolutionary path. Autistic individuals as well but AS is more likely to continue or grow. |
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Pobodys_Nerfect
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 11, 2008
Posts: 737
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:16 am Post subject: |
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| If there were too many Aspies there'd be a nonequilibrium. There'd be too much science and not enough sex, drugs and rock 'n roll! But then again, many top musicians seem to be Aspies too. Hmm. |
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HarryWilliams
Sea Gull
Joined: Apr 07, 2008
Age: 115
Posts: 226
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| My paternal grandfather was without a doubt autistic, he had 3 kids. My father was autistic and he had 3 kids. Me and my brothers have 6 kids between us... Believe me autistics breed like bunnies. Also don't forget the BAPPIES, the Broader Autistic Phenotypes - our NT cousins with significant autistic traits that dominate professions like engineering and computing. They're breeding like bunnies too. |
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Hodor
Old Spice
Joined: Mar 18, 2008
Age: 24
Posts: 1208
Location: England
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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It's nice to think that we're the start of a new evolutionary line, but it's just twaddle. In the present environment, at least, autism does not confer any significant advantages. Autistic children are no more likely to survive into adulthood than non-autistic children, and I can't think of any way that this would ever change. Besides, many people on this site who are married with children have an NT spouse, so it's not as if we're splitting off as a separate population, so that rules out any possibility of allopatric speciation*.
| HarryWilliams wrote: | | My paternal grandfather was without a doubt autistic, he had 3 kids. My father was autistic and he had 3 kids. Me and my brothers have 6 kids between us... Believe me autistics breed like bunnies. Also don't forget the BAPPIES, the Broader Autistic Phenotypes - our NT cousins with significant autistic traits that dominate professions like engineering and computing. They're breeding like bunnies too. |
Autism is certainly inherited genetically, but remember that it always has been. Probably because more children survive into adulthood now than they did even 100 years ago, it could be tempting to suggest that autism is on the rise. But it also means that a greater proportion of non-autistic children are surviving to childhood, so the proportion is probably more or less in equillibrium. Of all the families that contain lots of people with autism or autistic traits, think of all the families that don't.
| LTP wrote: |
Then we can get into some of the more wacky doomsday scenarios. Freak solar flare, asteroid collisions, Nuclear war, biological war. Reports of male fertility dropping by 50% over 100 years with no decline in this trend. Humanity has not yet reached a point where it does not have to seriously consider how safe it is as a whole. |
If these doomsday scenarios do happen, I don't think autism will carry any significant advantage over the general population for coping with these new conditions. Would autistic children be more 'viable' in these situations than NT children? I doubt it.
*Allopatric speciation - the process where populations become physically isolated and evolve genetric reproductive isolation, meaning that they can't breed with the original population.
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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Rasta is about freedom and the living God
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Joined: Jun 19, 2008
Posts: 7998
Location: Babylon
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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I wouldn't say "evolution" I would say "diversity".
Variations in these genes have not impeded the organism enough to keep them from being passed on. The organism can reproduce therefore the genetic trait is passed on. The significance of this I know not.
It's the same with all other genetic mutations that become inherited, something called "natural selection".
It's a highly charged, much debated ethical issue. |
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