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rdos
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 07, 2005
Age: 47
Posts: 799
Location: Sweden
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 Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:45 am Post subject: Re: Link Between AS and Gayness? |
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| Aurore wrote: | No, there are definitely people born asexual. Some people just have little to no sex drive. Arguing you can't be born asexual is just as flawed as arguing you can't be born straight. I'm sure in some cases it can be influenced by environment, but that doesn't mean there isn't at least a predisposition.
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I don't dispute that some people might be born with predispositions for asexuality. What I do dispute is that all asexuality is heritable and also that asexuality would be linked to AS through genetics. The predispositions that make people asexual in our culture might not be direct predispositions for asexual behavior, but can be things like not getting sexual feelings when deprived of potential partners and such.
| Aurore wrote: | Sex researcher Kinsey described a category of people who naturally didn't have an erotic response to either heterosexual or homosexual stimuli, and did not have physical encounters with individuals of either sex in which there was evidence of any response.
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Did he correlate his results with tests for depression, their appearance (mate value) and things like that? If not, I wouldn't trust his results.
| Aurore wrote: | His percentages were as high as nineteen percent of the unmarried female population and three to four percent of the unmarried male population.
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Interesting. That does seem to go in the same direction as my genealogy research seems to show. |
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n4mwd
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 08, 2008
Posts: 667
Location: Palm Beach, FL
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: Link Between AS and Gayness? |
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| rdos wrote: |
Interesting. That does seem to go in the same direction as my genealogy research seems to show. |
Genealogy would show traits like heredity. Autism is clearly a hereditary syndrome. Sexual orientations, OTOH, defy that logic. There is far more research into homosexuality than with asexuality, so I'm going to refer to some of that. In identical twin studies, there are more than a few cases where identical twins result in one child gay and the other straight. So its not 100% genetic. The best research I have seen suggests that it is hormones in-utero that seem to be responsible. I have seen claims that scientists have successfully been able to make rats gay by injecting hormones in-utero.
Getting back to asexuality, yes its a real orientation.
What asexuality is NOT:
1. A choice like celibacy.
-- Priests choose to avoid sex, they are celibate, not asexual.
2. Bad luck.
-- I'm asexual and when I was younger, I had lots of girlfriends, but no desire for sex. I considered them friends. They wanted more and that usually caused problems.
3. The result of sexual abuse as a child.
-- I was not sexually abused. I have worked with such children as a nurse and a good many of them are the opposite. That is, 10 year old boys with a history of being sexually abused that are so excessively sexually aggressive to the point that other children (and animals) are not safe.
4. Excessively restrictive parents/religion.
-- People tend to do what they want to when the parents aren't around. While religion may have something to say about premarital sex, most of them do not condemn marriage.
5. Virginity.
-- Sadly, most asexuals are not virgins. Some are even married with children. Like I said before, people grew up thinking that if you weren't gay, then you must be straight. Then they assumed that lifestyle. I personally know an asexual woman who was married with two sons. She told me that she became an alcoholic because she had to get drunk in order to tolerate her husband having sex with her. To put yourself in her position, as a straight guy, think of how you would feel if you were forced to have sex with another man.
6. Rape.
-- While I have personally had an unfortunate experience with an overly aggressive female once, I was asexual long before that, I just didn't know it at the time. I even had other serious relationships with women since then and before I knew I was asexual.
Now here is the kicker. Two years ago, I didn't know anything about asexuality or aspergers. I met a lovely autistic girl who educated me. She claimed to be a LFA, but she had been through enough therapy that she was a very high functioning LFA. At her insistence, I got diagnosed with AS and then promptly rejected that diagnosis. Of course I eventually accepted it, but not at first.
So to put it bluntly, asexuality breaks a lot of pre-conceived notions about what sexual orientations are. A sexual orientation is about who you want sex with and not who you are attracted to. |
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rdos
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 07, 2005
Age: 47
Posts: 799
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Link Between AS and Gayness? |
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| n4mwd wrote: | Genealogy would show traits like heredity. Autism is clearly a hereditary syndrome. Sexual orientations, OTOH, defy that logic.
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Well, if they defy the logic they would not be assumed to be linked to ASCs. At least not to any large degree.
| n4mwd wrote: | There is far more research into homosexuality than with asexuality, so I'm going to refer to some of that. In identical twin studies, there are more than a few cases where identical twins result in one child gay and the other straight. So its not 100% genetic. The best research I have seen suggests that it is hormones in-utero that seem to be responsible. I have seen claims that scientists have successfully been able to make rats gay by injecting hormones in-utero.
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Another problem I can easily see with the linking of asexuality with ASCs is that while they both seem to have similar prevalence in the general population, asexual have much higher correlation to Aspie score than HBT has (0.3 vs 0.2). That tells me that a considerable proportion of asexual autistics are not born asexual.
| n4mwd wrote: | | So to put it bluntly, asexuality breaks a lot of pre-conceived notions about what sexual orientations are. A sexual orientation is about who you want sex with and not who you are attracted to. |
I would define asexual as the lack of sexual desire, which can actually be coupled with any sexial orientation. That's why I don't accept it as a sexual orientation.
Besides, I've also identified "diarrhea" as having a similar correlation to Aspie score (0.29), but nobody would suggest that this would represent something inherit to autism. We should view this as a comorbid, possibly as a food intolerance or heavy metal toxin vulnernability. These are not inevitable and can be eliminated by dietary changes. |
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sonny1471
Sea Gull
Joined: Sep 20, 2007
Age: 37
Posts: 243
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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I'm gay and aspie but I really don't think there's a link or correlation between the two. This type of post comes up every so often on this board and I'm always surprised by people's concrete responses. Although, I really shouldn't be. Black or white thinking, anyone?
I've heard that aspies can't be gay because of the brain differences, etc. but I don't think that's even true. I'm living proof that it's not. As for gay men being more "right brained" and aspies being "left brained", is there such a study? I have recently seen studies saying that gay men's brains are similar to a straight woman's brain but that has nothing to do with left vs. right brained behavior. Just because the left side of the brain is "in charge" of the rational, analytical side of everything doesn't mean that aspies are more "left brained." Again, I don't think there's been studies done to prove that correlation. If there have been, I'd love to see the research.
People are people and everyone is different... aspie, gay, straight, asexual, etc. |
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n4mwd
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 08, 2008
Posts: 667
Location: Palm Beach, FL
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: Link Between AS and Gayness? |
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| rdos wrote: |
I would define asexual as the lack of sexual desire, which can actually be coupled with any sexial orientation. That's why I don't accept it as a sexual orientation.
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I have talked to asexuals who claimed to be gay-asexuals or straight-asexuals. In every case, they turned out to be either gay, straight or asexual, but not a combination. I'm not saying that such a thing is impossible, just that I haven't seen any proof of it.
The thing about sexual orientations is that they are about who you want sex with, not who you are attracted too. Asexuals are attracted to everybody who is attractive and not necessarilly by gender. Not only that, but a lot of the so called attractions tend to be based in Envy and not Lust.
In other words, an asexual guy might look at another guy and think "Wow he is so hot!". Thinking in terms of traditional sexuality, its easy to jump to the conclusion that the first guy is gay. In reality, an asexual isn't thinking that he wants to have sex with the good looking guy, he is actually feeling Envy as in he wants to look like and be as attractive as the good looking guy is.
A 100% gay man in his 20's would not have any problem with having a sexual realtionship with a gay man in his 60's who was not that attractive. An asexual might be attracted to young hot male studs, but not unattractive ones. I have seen Numerous examples of hetero marriages whereby one partner is significantly better looking than the other.
So while there is a lack of sexual desire present in asexuals, that alone is not the defining criteria. People on certain drugs and also "late bloomers" also have a lack of sexual desire, but they are not asexual. Again, you have to be born that way or you aren't asexual. |
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Fnord
Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 4188
Location: Pantopia
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Link Between AS and Gayness? |
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| Aspinator wrote: | | I find this puzzling. Here's my hypothesis; it's a given that people with AS have different wiring in their brains and see things differently from NTs. |
Granted.
| Aspinator wrote: | | You could also assume homosexual people's brains are also wired differently, hence their preferences that go against societal norms. |
Granted, for the sake of your argument.
| Aspinator wrote: | | Although I have a hetrosexual orientation I have been "approached" by gay people. |
Same here, especially in Europe. But this point is irrelevant.
| Aspinator wrote: | | I wonder if this is because our brains are wired similarly and a gay person picks up on this different wiredness? |
Your hypothesis is actually an unfounded idea - technically speaking, of course.
What gay people pick up on are the same things straight people pick up on: style, movement, eye-contact, shape, and proportion. Either that, or they're just horny, and will hit on anyone that catches their eye.
To put it another way, a calculator and a TV remote may look similar, but they are not wired the same. And both are wired differently from a garage-door opener. Aspies and gays may have similar behaviors, but they do not always have the same "wiring", and they are (or may be) differently-wired from neurotypical straights.
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Never mistake niceness for interest, interest for friendship, friendship for committment, or committment for permanancy. |
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sonny1471
Sea Gull
Joined: Sep 20, 2007
Age: 37
Posts: 243
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | A 100% gay man in his 20's would not have any problem with having a sexual realtionship with a gay man in his 60's who was not that attractive. An asexual might be attracted to young hot male studs, but not unattractive ones. I have seen Numerous examples of hetero marriages whereby one partner is significantly better looking than the other. |
Huh?! That statement doesn't even make any sense. Maybe I'm not understanding the logic here. I'm 100% gay and I would definitely have a problem sleeping with someone in their 60's regardless of whether or not they are attractive. Are you insinuating that somehow 100% (whatever that means) gay men are promiscuous and will sleep with any man regardless of their looks or age? That's absolutely not true and completely offensive. |
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catspurr
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 16, 2008
Posts: 781
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Link Between AS and Gayness? |
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| n4mwd wrote: | | rdos wrote: |
Interesting. That does seem to go in the same direction as my genealogy research seems to show. |
Genealogy would show traits like heredity. Autism is clearly a hereditary syndrome. Sexual orientations, OTOH, defy that logic. There is far more research into homosexuality than with asexuality, so I'm going to refer to some of that. In identical twin studies, there are more than a few cases where identical twins result in one child gay and the other straight. So its not 100% genetic. The best research I have seen suggests that it is hormones in-utero that seem to be responsible. I have seen claims that scientists have successfully been able to make rats gay by injecting hormones in-utero.
Getting back to asexuality, yes its a real orientation.
What asexuality is NOT:
1. A choice like celibacy.
-- Priests choose to avoid sex, they are celibate, not asexual.
2. Bad luck.
-- I'm asexual and when I was younger, I had lots of girlfriends, but no desire for sex. I considered them friends. They wanted more and that usually caused problems.
3. The result of sexual abuse as a child.
-- I was not sexually abused. I have worked with such children as a nurse and a good many of them are the opposite. That is, 10 year old boys with a history of being sexually abused that are so excessively sexually aggressive to the point that other children (and animals) are not safe.
4. Excessively restrictive parents/religion.
-- People tend to do what they want to when the parents aren't around. While religion may have something to say about premarital sex, most of them do not condemn marriage.
5. Virginity.
-- Sadly, most asexuals are not virgins. Some are even married with children. Like I said before, people grew up thinking that if you weren't gay, then you must be straight. Then they assumed that lifestyle. I personally know an asexual woman who was married with two sons. She told me that she became an alcoholic because she had to get drunk in order to tolerate her husband having sex with her. To put yourself in her position, as a straight guy, think of how you would feel if you were forced to have sex with another man.
6. Rape.
-- While I have personally had an unfortunate experience with an overly aggressive female once, I was asexual long before that, I just didn't know it at the time. I even had other serious relationships with women since then and before I knew I was asexual.
Now here is the kicker. Two years ago, I didn't know anything about asexuality or aspergers. I met a lovely autistic girl who educated me. She claimed to be a LFA, but she had been through enough therapy that she was a very high functioning LFA. At her insistence, I got diagnosed with AS and then promptly rejected that diagnosis. Of course I eventually accepted it, but not at first.
So to put it bluntly, asexuality breaks a lot of pre-conceived notions about what sexual orientations are. A sexual orientation is about who you want sex with and not who you are attracted to. |
I liked your comment and how you went into details and instances. Good job and I agree.
My brother is asexual. Not many around him understand that and will put false labels on him. |
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n4mwd
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 08, 2008
Posts: 667
Location: Palm Beach, FL
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: Link Between AS and Gayness? |
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| catspurr wrote: |
I liked your comment and how you went into details and instances. Good job and I agree.
My brother is asexual. Not many around him understand that and will put false labels on him. |
Thanks, its nice to have someone actually agree with me for a change. BTW, I like your cat. I have a black cat just like it. |
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malithion2
Sea Gull
Joined: Jun 16, 2008
Age: 21
Posts: 209
Location: Albuquerque, NM
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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I think some people with AS may have such a hard time with opposite sex relationships that maybe they choose to try the same sex. Of course theres the homosexuals who've known from birth about their orientation, but the people I know are NT so I'm unsure if there is a connection.
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The breaking of a wave cannot explain the whole sea. |
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Aurore
Dingo Lycanthrope
Joined: Dec 07, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 1208
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: Link Between AS and Gayness? |
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| rdos wrote: |
I don't dispute that some people might be born with predispositions for asexuality. What I do dispute is that all asexuality is heritable and also that asexuality would be linked to AS through genetics. The predispositions that make people asexual in our culture might not be direct predispositions for asexual behavior, but can be things like not getting sexual feelings when deprived of potential partners and such.
Did he correlate his results with tests for depression, their appearance (mate value) and things like that? If not, I wouldn't trust his results.
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That I can agree with. I think I just misunderstood you.
I certainly doubt it's all entirely heritable.
And I doubt it's linked to AS, too.
_________________
"The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls..." |
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Aurore
Dingo Lycanthrope
Joined: Dec 07, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 1208
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: Link Between AS and Gayness? |
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| n4mwd wrote: |
Genealogy would show traits like heredity. Autism is clearly a hereditary syndrome. Sexual orientations, OTOH, defy that logic. There is far more research into homosexuality than with asexuality, so I'm going to refer to some of that. In identical twin studies, there are more than a few cases where identical twins result in one child gay and the other straight. So its not 100% genetic. The best research I have seen suggests that it is hormones in-utero that seem to be responsible. I have seen claims that scientists have successfully been able to make rats gay by injecting hormones in-utero. |
The cool thing is enough of gayness is hereditary/womb-condition-determined that even some identical twins raised completely separately both end up gay. Something like that happened to my friends Kris and Laurent (one was raised here, the other in France). When Kris was a teenager, he went to France on vacation, and was trying to figure out how to tell his brother about his sexuality when Laurent all of a sudden came out of the closet to him.
| rdos wrote: |
Besides, I've also identified "diarrhea" as having a similar correlation to Aspie score (0.29), but nobody would suggest that this would represent something inherit to autism. |
This made me laugh for a long time.
_________________
"The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls..." |
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Fnord
Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 4188
Location: Pantopia
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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I know this may start a flame war, but I'll go with it anyway...
There have long been efforts to connect homosexuality with some kind of genetic pre-disposition, whether that disposition also involves mental acuity or retardation, emotional or metabolic disorders, or even blood type. There are other efforts to associate homosexuality with the means of natal delivery, whether or not the child was breast-fed, which parent held the child and for how long, what TV programs the child watched, and whether or not the child ever saw its parents having sex.
Every one of these theories is predicated on the idea that homosexuality is not a choice, but that it is either something determined by genetics, or by the child's pre-adolescent environment, or both - in other words, each of these ideas has been forwarded by "experts" on both sides of the closet door to support the notion that homosexuality is not the homosexual's fault, and that the homosexual is a victim.
But for every article that "proves" each of these ideas, there is at least one other that disproves it.
Then there are also the attempts by ignorant people to "demonize" Autistics and Aspies by associating these conditions with other behavioral traits that are considered anti-social, illegal, immoral, insane, or un-ethical. Thus we have people claiming that ALL Auties and Aspies are rapists, sociopaths, addicts, perverts, fundamentalists, exhibitionists, cultists, atheists, toilet-lickers, kleptomainiacs, alcoholics, homosexuals, pedophiles, and a host of other unpopular things, most of which might be unpopular only to those issuing their particular decree! This is prejudice.
Aspie-ness and Autism have nothing to do with any of these - there is no notable correlation between Autistic Spectrum Disorders (ASD's) and any one of the aforementioned "abberations". People simply do not understand ASD's, and what they do not understand, they fear. What is feared eventually is hated. Thus the ignorant, hate-filled rhetoric directed at people with ASD's and the lame associations between ASD's and the abberant behavior of the week.
Okay ... I've run out of steam ... rant over ... your turn...
_________________
Never mistake niceness for interest, interest for friendship, friendship for committment, or committment for permanancy. |
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Averick
Calculateurre of Chaos
Joined: Mar 06, 2007
Age: 29
Posts: 2170
Location: in the trenches..
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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Good point, Fnord!
But I see what the OP is questioning, and I still think it's a feasible hypothesis.
For I've once stated the same. |
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ericc
Snowy Owl
Joined: May 22, 2008
Age: 20
Posts: 126
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I had a Bi-sexual attracted to me. I just like to consider myself a straight Sissy boy that loved doninating Wacky Tomboys  |
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