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CaptainMac
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21 Mar 2008, 4:30 pm

If you need new floppies, look for Sony, Verbatim, or Imation. Memorex, Fujifilm, and generic disks just aren't that good.

You can still find 1.4MB "high density" floppies everywhere, just not in high quantities like you used to. Good luck finding 5.25" or 720K "double density" floppies these days, although they do still show up at hardware stores now and then from my experience.

I actually just wrote a blog on this exact topic yesterday. It's a private blog but if anyone wants me to put it on a public site let me know, I can do that.

I only use floppies on my old computers, mostly to transfer files to a newer one for printing (I still use an IBM from 1993 for Office 97, don't have a newer version of Office on my Macs except Word 98 on my old iBook).



gamefreak
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21 Mar 2008, 6:30 pm

CaptainMac wrote:
If you need new floppies, look for Sony, Verbatim, or Imation. Memorex, Fujifilm, and generic disks just aren't that good.

You can still find 1.4MB "high density" floppies everywhere, just not in high quantities like you used to. Good luck finding 5.25" or 720K "double density" floppies these days, although they do still show up at hardware stores now and then from my experience.

I actually just wrote a blog on this exact topic yesterday. It's a private blog but if anyone wants me to put it on a public site let me know, I can do that.

I only use floppies on my old computers, mostly to transfer files to a newer one for printing (I still use an IBM from 1993 for Office 97, don't have a newer version of Office on my Macs except Word 98 on my old iBook).


If you can transfer you blog that will be useful. Thanks!!



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21 Mar 2008, 7:13 pm

I haven't had a floppy drive on a computer for a long time. The strange thing is that even in the absence of a floppy drive Windows reports having one.



CaptainMac
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21 Mar 2008, 7:32 pm

I'll just stick it here, since my public blog has my real name on it:

I’m sure everyone out there knows what a floppy disk, or diskette, refers to. For the uneducated, a diskette is a small squarish object that is 3.5" inches on each side, gets inserted into a drive made specially for them in a computer, and is used to store files.

If you’ve never heard of such a thing, chances are you have a newer computer. Diskette drives were standard equipment for much of the 1980s and 1990s and were still included on the majority of computers until a few years ago. Apple’s Macintosh line was the first to purge the disks in 1998 (ironically, it was the Macintosh that made the 3.5" diskette popular upon its introduction in 1984) followed by laptops from any company and PC makers around 2003. Floppy drives are optional on many computers today, standard on only a handful, and can be easily added to any motherboard that has a connector and support for them.

In the past, floppies were a primary means of storage. Hard drives were too expensive to be practical and systems would often ship with two floppy drives--one for the operating system or the program and one for a data disk. In those days, floppies were actually floppy--they measured 5.25" on each side and were not enclosed in the hardshell case found in modern diskettes.

In 1987, the 3.5" floppy hit the mainstream PC line in full force, appearing in IBM’s PS/2 and Toshiba’s early laptops. While it had been available prior to that date, it was not yet as popular as its more affordable and larger cousin.

Hard drives began to become popular in the late 1980s and were standard in all computers by the mid 1990s. While some systems shipped with two floppies and one hard drive (especially if the system had both a 3.5" and 5.25" drive), most lost their second drive in favor of the floppy.

On DOS and Windows systems, floppies are sometimes referred to as "disks in the A drive". On a two floppy system, the second drive is known as the "B drive". This explains why the hard drive, which logically comes after the two supported floppy drives, is designated by the letter "C". (If you’ve ever wondered why the letter B gets skipped on a newer PC, this is the reason--it’s a shame, I happen to like that letter as my last name begins with one).

Macintoshes are harder to spot with two internal floppy drives. Only the Macintosh SE, Macintosh SE SuperDrive, Macintosh LC, Macintosh II, Macintosh IIx, and Macintosh IIfx support two floppy drives internally. In the case of either SE model or the original LC, the second drive was generally removed if a hard drive was installed just as it was on most PC models, including the IBM PS/2. (There was a special bracket available for the SE, however, that let the hard drive be mounted in a way that both floppy drives were useable). On the older Apple II models, drives were always external with the exception of the semi-portable IIc and IIc Plus. Most systems came with two drives and a combination unit containing two 5.25" drives, known as the DuoDisk, was available for some time in the mid 1980s. The Macintosh line has always used 3.5" disks exclusively while the Apple II series, like the IBM PC and compatibles, have used both.

Capacities vary greatly by system and the type of disk. Originally, 5.25" disks held 143K per side on an Apple II and 180K on an IBM PC (when formatted using only one side of the disk). An Apple II’s disk could be flipped to use the second side of the disk by ejecting the disk and literally turning it over. A tool known as a "disk notcher" was needed in many cases so that a read/write hole could be created for the second side. (I actually own a disk notcher).

The IBM PC did things differently. Instead of requiring the disk to be flipped, the drive would format the disk on both sides to be used as a single volume. This brought the capacity of a DS/DD diskette (double sided, double density) to 360K.

3.5" disks held 400K on the original Macintosh and 360K on an IBM PC under the single-sided format setting. The capacity grew to 800K on a Macintosh or 720K on an IBM when formatted as double density, using the same technique as the IBM PC’s floppy drive.

In 1987, IBM began to ship high density drives with some of its PS/2 computers. Other companies followed suit. High density versions of both 3.5" and 5.25" disks became available. The high density 5.25" disk on an IBM held 1.2MB.

The capacity of 1.4MB (an accurate amount on a Macintosh, the capacity is actually 1.44MB on a PC) that everyone knows today is that of the high density disk. Following the standardization of the feature across all lines (most every computer in production had a high density 3.5" drive by 1991) led to its dominance as the primary format. The disks were initially unpopular, as they cost more than their lower density counterparts, but the difference in price became nonexistent by the end of the 1990s.

An extended density format, holding 2.88MB, was an attempt on the IBM platform to further expand the capacity of a 3.5" floppy disk. Unpopular and expensive, the extended density disk failed and is considered a rarity today. They were available for a brief period in the early 1990s.

"Superfloppy" drives such as the Iomega Zip Disk (which held 100MB) attempted to silence the floppy, yet the drives kept shipping with new computers. They were the only way of distributing software until the advent of CD-ROM, which soon made shipping software on floppies impractical. (Find a set of Office 97 floppy disks--there are about 35 or so of them--if you need a good reason to appreciate CD-ROMs).

The Zip Drive and its competitors did not catch on because of the floppy’s universal presence and relatively low cost (even if the cost per megabyte was very high).

By 1998, floppy drives were appearing in every computer in the 3.5" high density version. Very few computers came with the older 5.25" drive or shipped with two drives by that point--in fact, only customized computers were coming in those configurations.

It was Apple who boldly pulled the plug on floppy diskettes. They declared the floppy to be obsolete when the original iMac shipped without one. Users were encouraged to use the internet to send and back up files. However, those with many old floppies around--either from work files or old programs purchased years before the iMac came out--were forced to buy a USB floppy drive. The market for those drives became considerably large between 1998 and 2000, with many vendors selling nearly identical products to make a few extra dollars. No Apple made since early 1999 has come with a floppy drive. CD-R has also been viewed as a potential replacement for the floppy in Apple’s eyes--the drives became available on the iMac in 1999.

Small-size laptops were the first non-Apple computers to eliminate the floppy drive. Dell, HP, and the other companies began to follow Apple’s suit in 2003 in their desktops. Some made the drives optional. In many cases of customization, such as the web purchase orders taken by IBM, floppy drives were standard equipment that could be subtracted. The cost of $15 was low enough to convince most folks to buy floppy drives anyways, especially older computer users who had backed up many years of work on floppies and were used to using them.

The advent of the Memory Key (in IBM’s terms; some call it a flash drive) placed a rather large nail in the still unsealed coffin of the floppy disk. It was as portable if not more portable than a floppy, could be written to and deleted from like a floppy (a CD-RW does not allow this to be done easily), and has cost less and less each year. They are fast and large in storage capacity, ranging from 32MB to several hundred gigabytes--or hundreds of boxes of floppies per drive!

Floppies have reached new lows in pricing. Many boxes can be purchased for $4 or $5 these days (for ten disks). The number of manufacturers of floppy diskettes has also decreased--it was common to find six or seven vendors of floppies in the same store in the mid 1990s while today any one store may only carry one or two brands of floppy disks. As always, Imation (formerly 3M) provides the best quality disks, but even Imation has used cost-cutting techniques. First, the wrap-around labels were replaced by labels that do not wrap around the disks. Next, the colour coding of these labels disappeared. Finally, some companies have introduced disks without any labels at all in the box, forcing users to write on the disks with permanent markers.

Do the floppies still have a loyal following? Indeed they do. Anyone with older computers lacking USB ports will have a good use for floppies, as it may be the only way to get the information from one system to another. Unfortunately, the capacity of a floppy disk often makes this difficult--try putting a large Excel spreadsheet on one! There are also longtime floppy users who continue to use the disks for backups, although they are quickly finding that the larger file formats of today’s applications (notably Office 2007’s .docx) format are limiting the capacity of these disks considerably. 1.4MB does not go far anymore! Finally, some drivers, software licenses, and diagnostic tools rely on floppies to run, install, or become activated.

The effort to kill off the floppy began in the early 1990s when Iomega introduced the Zip drive. Today, the crusade continues and while the battle appears to be closer to being won by the anti-floppy, the floppy disk continues to fight and probably will still be in relatively widespread use three years from now.

If you’re still using floppies on a regular basis and you indeed have the equipment to switch to something else, by all means abandon the old diskettes. They are far less reliable (especially newer disks, which are poorly made), a worse value (compare the $/megabyte ratio of a floppy and a Memory Key), and store much less than their newer cousins. Save your drives, you may need them to access old files some day, but help to put the dinosaur into the extinction bin once and for all. As much as I like floppies, their time has come and gone and the computer industry needs to move on--they are in fact no longer viable for everyday use.

Could traditional hard drives be next? Only time and the availability and reliability of flash memory will decide that...



m91
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21 Mar 2008, 7:44 pm

Floppy disks are obsolete now. USB flash disks have taken over.


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gamefreak
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21 Mar 2008, 8:09 pm

Enigmatic_Oddity wrote:
I haven't had a floppy drive on a computer for a long time. The strange thing is that even in the absence of a floppy drive Windows reports having one.


Thats because windows likes having one for beckup purposes and boot disk.



Betzalel
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22 Mar 2008, 12:13 am

I disagree that flash might take over the systems main HD. flash simply can't handle the constant amount of reading and writing. and a typical system drive takes on a regular basis. it has a limited number of writes that it can handle.

and hard drive technology is rather cheap and reliable these days. I just wish SCSI and fiberchannel prices would come down... I'm currently looking for a way to convert fiberchannel to SATA for my Sun
(although FireWire drives are also an easy option if I'm not wanting to boot off of them.)

An enclosure that has SATA disks inside and a FC-AL over copper connector on the outside would be ideal for what I want though since I could both have large drives and boot from them too (fcal has a 100MB/s max data rate)



greenblue
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22 Mar 2008, 12:34 am

m91 wrote:
Floppy disks are obsolete now. USB flash disks have taken over.

I agree that USB flash drives have replaced floppy disks now, although they are becoming obsolete as a regular use now, they are still necessary to be used in a technical level, when it comes to repairs, maintenance, and installation, so practically their use have been reduced to that level, still needed.


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22 Mar 2008, 11:19 am

Tim_Tex wrote:
I was out computer browsing yesterday, and I didn't notice any floppy drives on the new computers. I asked a sales rep if there were any floppy disks, and they said no.

That was really weird.


Actually, the only thing that's weird about it is that you noticed or cared that they were missing. The only people who use floppy disks anymore live in Lancaster Pennsylvania and ride around in their horse-drawn carriages.



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22 Mar 2008, 6:47 pm

In my opinion, if you buy a floppy drive for your computer, it will sit there, gathering cobwebs, until you have forgotten you even have it, at least, until the one day where you'd be totally screwed without it and very happy you made the decision to get one.

I was horrified when I first heard Windows machines were actually being sold with no floppy drives. Mine were custom-built for me by my brother, so I never had to worry about losing them, and when I got my most recent computer, which was a Dell, I created a rediculous anachronism by ensuring that my quad-core, 4gb of ram computer came with a floppy disk drive. My Mom felt it was not necessary, but agreed to let me add it to the budget when I pointed out that it was only going to add around 1% to the cost of the computer.

I recently decided my machine needed a copy of XP on it for compatibility reasons, but XP did not come with the drivers needed to read my hard drive. Had I chosen not to include a floppy drive on my computer, I would not have been able to install it. Thanks to my decision, all I had to do was put a floppy with a few driver files into the computer during setup, and it installed just fine. Meanwhile, others online with my model were struggling with difficult, complicated, and ineffective solutions to the problem.

About 2 months ago, I came across a pile of floppies in a walk-in closet in our house while searching for something unrelated. They were a backup of our hard drive that was made in June of 1992. I used my floppy drive to restore the entire hard drive to a DOSBox install, bringing back many things I thought had been lost forever, right down to the official IBM PS/1 wallpaper we had. Oh, and there were no errors on the disks, the data was perfectly intact, so I think the unreliablity of floppies is only true if you treat them like s**t. Of course, had I chosen to save a few bucks and not included a floppy drive with my computer, it wouldn't have mattered how well the data had been preserved...

Despite many claims to the contrary, Windows Vista supports FAT16 perfectly in every way except that it cannot be installed on it. There are several Aero-themed icons in Vista specifically for floppy drives, and you can still create an MS-DOS startup disk on the floppy format screen. Windows XP actually relies on floppies for several functions, such as the backup utility, hard drive driver installation during setup, and password reset disks. Given that floppies still play a vital role even today, it's hard to believe that low-budget computers haven't included floppy drives for years, and that even the high-end machines no longer include them. I think the lack of a floppy drive is a gimmick. It provides a means to convince computer illiterates that the computer is "new" and "modern", when the reality is that the presence of a floppy drive has nothing to do with other specs in the computer and that it actually severely cripples your machine for no reason. Under this theory, it makes perfect sense for Apple to have been the first to actually sell a machine with no floppy drive, given that they are big on being "hip" and "in".

Now, I do agree you'd have to be crazy to try and backup your data onto these things. My data for example, would need over 300,000 floppies. This would cost me about 200,000 dollars to use as a backup system as opposed to the few hundred it cost me to buy my external hard drive. I imagine routine backups would also be somewhat time consuming... If you're using floppies regularly at this point, you are insane. However, having support for floppies is still essential in my opinion, and I think it's equally crazy to save 10-20 dollars on a machine and be without one.



Betzalel
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22 Mar 2008, 7:45 pm

They only got unreliable later in the very late 90s a backup made in 1992 would have used reliable floppy media. by the late 90s floppys were starting to be considered useless and they cut corners on the media quality that's where the complaints about unreliable floppies are comming from.

I still have 5.25 floppies from the early 80s that still contain perfectly readable data. although those are single sided. some of them are notched to allow you to flip the disk over to use the other side in a single sided drive.

I also have to add that removing the floppy drives is more than a gimmick. they are saving money making mother boards that have no floppy controller chip on them anymore. I have an AMD sempron board with no floppy controller on it at all. and many of the machines being sold without a floppy drive also have no floppy controller so you couldn't add one if you wanted to (unless you use a USB one and even that may not be bootable)

the floppy drives isnt the main thign that bothers me its the idea of removing all "legacy ports" I really want to have an RS232 port and a parallel port. being bale ot use older equipment is important to me.
I still use serial terminals because they make an excellent second screen/keyboard if you are using text applications. and parallel is nice for older printers. even the floppy controller being removed irks me because that means I need to setup an older computer to be able to read floppys for the most part since I'm not going to pay for a USB floppy drive when I have a whole case of PC floppy drives all ready. Luckily my Sun Workstations have legacy ports and floppy support. but just about every PC these days doesn't I even got an older laptop just so I could have the serial port on it. because I do couple it to an old IBM 3151 terminal with a Model M type buckling spring keyboard when I'm home for the holidays. that and I use it to connect up to my Color Computer 3 to use as a virtual hard drive through special software and the serial port.

removing useful backwards compatibility in the name of saving a few bucks on the motherboard really pisses me off. particularly when most of the USB dongles to replace those missing ports are total crap that only half works compared to the real hardware.



Kamex
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22 Mar 2008, 10:09 pm

I was not aware that companies were actually making motherboards with such a handicap. How rampant is this?



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22 Mar 2008, 10:16 pm

My computer has a floppy drive on it, but I never use it. If anything, the only thing it is doing is probably letting more dust inside the computer through the loading slot. :evil: For me this evil format cannot die soon enough.It should have already been dead 10 years ago, and yet people are still using it for some strange reason. Don't people know there are better options out there now?



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22 Mar 2008, 10:29 pm

There are some programs to be found on floppy...ONLY! Such as dazzle, a screensaver program, Afterdark, not MACed, Windows 3.11. If floppys were totaly out of the picture, some programs may be lost forever! :cry:



CaptainMac
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22 Mar 2008, 10:38 pm

Hey, another After Dark fan!! ! Good to see another who enjoys the flying toasters on the screen!



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23 Mar 2008, 2:54 am

That reminds me of something: http://www.heise.de/ct/schlagseite/99/04/gross.jpg (The text is: "don't think I'm crazy... but do you sometimes dream of flying toasters?" to which the other computer replies: "Every night!")


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