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Do you think that the universe is infinite in size?

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Do you think that the universe is infinite in size?
Yes 53%  53%  [ 20 ]
No 47%  47%  [ 18 ]
Total votes : 38

Adrenaline
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17 Sep 2008, 10:46 pm

To accept the value of space ( the great void) as having an infinite value then you must as well accept that so does its contents or the possibility there of.
if you only go by whats in space then your limited by what you can conceive or perceive or your own imagination.
If space was not infinite, then where are we in it and whats beyond us?



chever
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17 Sep 2008, 10:48 pm

Adrenaline wrote:
To accept the value of space ( the great void) as having an infinite value then you must as well accept that so does its contents or the possibility there of.
if you only go by whats in space then your limited by what you can conceive or perceive or your own imagination.
If space was not infinite, then where are we in it and whats beyond us?


This makes even less sense.


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malithion2
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17 Sep 2008, 10:50 pm

Adrenaline wrote:
To accept the value of space ( the great void) as having an infinite value then you must as well accept that so does its contents or the possibility there of.
if you only go by whats in space then your limited by what you can conceive or perceive or your own imagination.
If space was not infinite, then where are we in it and whats beyond us?


what?



twoshots
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17 Sep 2008, 10:54 pm

chever wrote:
twoshots wrote:
If this is ambiguous, I am trying to say the universe can in fact be both infinite and expanding.


This makes no sense

How so? The universe's expansion isn't "expansion" in the way that a balloon expands. Wikipedia puts it concisely as
Quote:
Even if the overall spatial extent is infinite we still say that space is expanding, because locally the characteristic distance between objects is increasing.

And this is consistent with what else I have heard on the subject,


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Adrenaline
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17 Sep 2008, 11:01 pm

So I take it this thread is about the boundary's of our known universe
that is set by that of its expanding matter and the borders there of that we can detect or predict?
Is this the definition we are going by?



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17 Sep 2008, 11:03 pm

Adrenaline wrote:
So I take it this thread is about the boundary's of our known universe
that is set by that of its expansion and borders that we can detect or predict?
Is this the definition we are going by?

Not exactly. Any way you slice it, the universe is without boundaries or borders. The question is whether the universe contains infinite volume.


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malithion2
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17 Sep 2008, 11:06 pm

twoshots wrote:
chever wrote:
twoshots wrote:
If this is ambiguous, I am trying to say the universe can in fact be both infinite and expanding.


This makes no sense

How so? The universe's expansion isn't "expansion" in the way that a balloon expands. Wikipedia puts it concisely as
Quote:
Even if the overall spatial extent is infinite we still say that space is expanding, because locally the characteristic distance between objects is increasing.

And this is consistent with what else I have heard on the subject,


Put two dots on a balloon and you'll see the distance between them expand, this is basically the same thing minus a dimension. Infinite space would imply infinite space at the beginning of the universe: this is not true with the big bang considered all energy and space began at this finite event. Space in every sense could be infinite in a finite universe.



twoshots
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17 Sep 2008, 11:10 pm

malithion2 wrote:
twoshots wrote:
chever wrote:
twoshots wrote:
If this is ambiguous, I am trying to say the universe can in fact be both infinite and expanding.


This makes no sense

How so? The universe's expansion isn't "expansion" in the way that a balloon expands. Wikipedia puts it concisely as
Quote:
Even if the overall spatial extent is infinite we still say that space is expanding, because locally the characteristic distance between objects is increasing.

And this is consistent with what else I have heard on the subject,


Put two dots on a balloon and you'll see the distance between them expand, this is basically the same thing minus a dimension. Infinite space would imply infinite space at the beginning of the universe: this is not true with the big bang considered all energy and space began at this finite event. Space in every sense could be infinite in a finite universe.

I really don't think the big bang refutes the possibility of infinite space. I'm not too up on the model, but I've heard enough cosmologists entertain the possibility without qualifications that the universe is infinite that it seems pretty clear that the big bang is not generally thought of as being evidence of such. How exactly that would work I do not understand as yet.


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chever
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17 Sep 2008, 11:11 pm

twoshots wrote:
chever wrote:
twoshots wrote:
If this is ambiguous, I am trying to say the universe can in fact be both infinite and expanding.


This makes no sense

How so? The universe's expansion isn't "expansion" in the way that a balloon expands. Wikipedia puts it concisely as
Quote:
Even if the overall spatial extent is infinite we still say that space is expanding, because locally the characteristic distance between objects is increasing.

And this is consistent with what else I have heard on the subject,


Alright. The only idea I have of the Universe's dimensions is from Carl Sagan (it was in Cosmos ... may be outdated now), where he suggested that the Universe is finite but unbounded, taking on the shape of something like a hypersphere.

And actually I saw this news fairly recently (from 2003)

http://goldennumber.net/universe.htm

finite and shaped like a dodecahedron it says


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malithion2
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17 Sep 2008, 11:16 pm

twoshots wrote:
malithion2 wrote:
twoshots wrote:
chever wrote:
twoshots wrote:
If this is ambiguous, I am trying to say the universe can in fact be both infinite and expanding.


This makes no sense

How so? The universe's expansion isn't "expansion" in the way that a balloon expands. Wikipedia puts it concisely as
Quote:
Even if the overall spatial extent is infinite we still say that space is expanding, because locally the characteristic distance between objects is increasing.

And this is consistent with what else I have heard on the subject,


Put two dots on a balloon and you'll see the distance between them expand, this is basically the same thing minus a dimension. Infinite space would imply infinite space at the beginning of the universe: this is not true with the big bang considered all energy and space began at this finite event. Space in every sense could be infinite in a finite universe.

I really don't think the big bang refutes the possibility of infinite space. I'm not too up on the model, but I've heard enough cosmologists entertain the possibility without qualifications that the universe is infinite that it seems pretty clear that the big bang is not generally thought of as being evidence of such. How exactly that would work I do not understand as yet.


Well the big bang produced the first light in gamma radiation which has now red shifted to microwave radiation with this we can infer a time scale of about 14 billion years. With this we can assume the universe at the most basic is 14 billion light years in volume. At least that my thoughts on the subject.



malithion2
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17 Sep 2008, 11:17 pm

chever wrote:
twoshots wrote:
chever wrote:
twoshots wrote:
If this is ambiguous, I am trying to say the universe can in fact be both infinite and expanding.


This makes no sense

How so? The universe's expansion isn't "expansion" in the way that a balloon expands. Wikipedia puts it concisely as
Quote:
Even if the overall spatial extent is infinite we still say that space is expanding, because locally the characteristic distance between objects is increasing.

And this is consistent with what else I have heard on the subject,


Alright. The only idea I have of the Universe's dimensions is from Carl Sagan (it was in Cosmos ... may be outdated now), where he suggested that the Universe is finite but unbounded, taking on the shape of something like a hypersphere.

And actually I saw this news fairly recently (from 2003)

http://goldennumber.net/universe.htm

I agree with you. Cosmos is a very good book and mini series!

finite and shaped like a dodecahedron it says



chever
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17 Sep 2008, 11:24 pm

I almost didn't see your reply. Please take that out of the quote box or bold it.


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malithion2
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17 Sep 2008, 11:26 pm

chever wrote:
I almost didn't see your reply. Please take that out of the quote box or bold it.


Me?



twoshots
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17 Sep 2008, 11:28 pm

malithion2 wrote:
twoshots wrote:
malithion2 wrote:
twoshots wrote:
chever wrote:
twoshots wrote:
If this is ambiguous, I am trying to say the universe can in fact be both infinite and expanding.


This makes no sense

How so? The universe's expansion isn't "expansion" in the way that a balloon expands. Wikipedia puts it concisely as
Quote:
Even if the overall spatial extent is infinite we still say that space is expanding, because locally the characteristic distance between objects is increasing.

And this is consistent with what else I have heard on the subject,


Put two dots on a balloon and you'll see the distance between them expand, this is basically the same thing minus a dimension. Infinite space would imply infinite space at the beginning of the universe: this is not true with the big bang considered all energy and space began at this finite event. Space in every sense could be infinite in a finite universe.

I really don't think the big bang refutes the possibility of infinite space. I'm not too up on the model, but I've heard enough cosmologists entertain the possibility without qualifications that the universe is infinite that it seems pretty clear that the big bang is not generally thought of as being evidence of such. How exactly that would work I do not understand as yet.


Well the big bang produced the first light in gamma radiation which has now red shifted to microwave radiation with this we can infer a time scale of about 14 billion years. With this we can assume the universe at the most basic is 14 billion light years in volume. At least that my thoughts on the subject.

Well, that ignores that the inflationary phase of expansion may have exceeded the speed of light (space can expand at whatever speed it wants too), and on top of that, oddly, wikipedia claims that the universe is actually much larger than that. One of their sources is Constraining the Topology of the Universe, which says:
Quote:
For a wide class of models, the nondetection rules out the possibility that we live in a universe with topology scale smaller than 24 Gpc.

where Gpc is billions of parsecs.

This has something to do with the fact the univere's expansion or something. For example, I would suspect that although we may be seeing light emitted 14 billion years ago, what emitted that light has since had plenty of time to get much farther away than that. Although I'm not sure if that is the correct explanation.


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chever
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17 Sep 2008, 11:36 pm

Yes


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slowmutant
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17 Sep 2008, 11:37 pm

chever wrote:
twoshots wrote:
If this is ambiguous, I am trying to say the universe can in fact be both infinite and expanding.


This makes no sense


I think it does. If you think of the whole universe as just a galaxy surrounded by empty void.