"OK to be a nationalist" thread.

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I don't think actreon is banned because it said he was active here this morning but has not made a post since yesterday. Can a banned member still log into their account and the forum would record their last login here as if they are still a member?

I'm not sure, League_Girl, but let's none of us try to find out?

The guy did say he was a national socialist, but claimed not to be a nazi...that is a little bit confusing.

Yes, unless their password was changed too. They just cannot submit posts or PMs.

It's actually a contradiction. By definition, "Nazi" is an abreviation for "Nationalsozialismus", which means "National Socialism" when translated from German to English.

Claiming to be a National Socialist while claiming to not be a Nazi is like claiming to be a citizen of Germany while claiming to not be a German citizen. It's a word game meant to fool people.

@Borromeo: Taking it easy on people with disabilities is one thing, taking it easy on people who try to stir up conflict while using their disabilities as a shield or an excuse is another. Remember, a disability is not a "Get Out of Jail Free" card. As long as a person can chose their actions, they are responsible for their actions. Mere depression still allows for choice and depression does not absolve responsibility -- even schizophrenics can be put in prison for their crimes.

Last edited by Fnord on 13 Aug 2019, 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mirriam-Webster


Nothing about race in these definitions. While nationalists are often racists nationalism and racism are not the exact same thing.

There is a prohibition in the guidelines against racism and bigotry against other groups but not against nationalism. That is likely because the guidelines were written before the rise of nationalism. In light of recent political developments Alex needs to make a decision.

Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 13 Aug 2019, 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The part about "a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups" covers a lot of ground, especially when you consider that "culture" is often used as a euphemism for "race" by white supremacists.

Anyone can be a Nazi, racist, white supremacist, etc.

Sadly people who are these never see themselves as one.

I even thought he was a troll when he joined here but because he made a "I have a hard time accepting my diagnoses" thread, I thought he was then a genuine member and decided to just give him a chance.

Well there are safe spaces for these people.

They also can't see the board either unless they are logged out and seeing it as a quest.

neo-Nazis talk more about the "white race" than the Nazis did.

The Nazis talked about the "Aryan" race. They actually thought most "white" people were inferior.

I notice that people who are racist are called Nazi, people who are against immigration and judge Muslims and stereotype groups and justify racism are called Nazis. Even Trump is called one too.

People who deny the Holocaust ever happened and think Hitler was a great leader are also called Nazi. We also call them trolls. I think this is a bannable offense on this forum because this talk will get you banned instantly.

OK, thanks, Fnord. That makes good sense. Not something I've thought through from both sides, you can see: how silly of me.

Nazi is not a word to be taken lightly.

Just because someone is a conservative doesn't mean that someone is a Nazi.

A Nazi is something very specific.

Right, kraftiekortie. Most people who are conservative don't identify with the Nazi movement. I'm conservative, mostly, and that makes me oppose Nationalism and Socialism vehemently. National Socialism, therefore, is the anathema.

Granted, they'll be people first, nationalists/socialists/Democrats/Republicans/Green Party second. Little trick that makes interactions simpler and more friendly.

Hello all,

I was uncomfortable with this for a variety of reasons but I do think I ultimately made the right decision.

So full transparency. I wouldn't normally do this, but I'm going to try and address all the points made in this discussion, completely spell out my reasoning, and because some PMs I received from the banned user are relevant, I'm going to post them as well.

What is nationalism?
There are at least three relevant definitions of nationalism:

1) The belief that nation states should exist.
2) A twisted version of patriotism, as illustrated by Fnord's examples, which emphasises the supremacy of one's country.
3) The belief that only certain people deserve to live in your country, particularly with reference to race, ethnicity, language, or religion.

Is nationalism acceptable on WrongPlanet?

WrongPlanet's rules do not mention nationalism specifically. Therefore, nationalism is acceptable as long as it doesn't break any of the other rules.

Type 1 nationalism seems to be an extremely common view held by the vast majority of people.
Type 2 nationalism is more controversial, but on the face of it wouldn't seem to break any rules.
Type 3 nationalism breaks WrongPlanet's rule against racism.

Are nationalists allowed on WrongPlanet?

WrongPlanet users can only judge each other based on what they contribute to WrongPlanet. So if someone secretly supports Type 3 nationalism, but doesn't express that view on WrongPlanet, then that's fine. There is no thought police.

At least one PPR regular, earlier in his time posting on WP, indicated support for Type 3 nationalism. This led to moderator action, which led to him changing the contents of his posts. I don't believe he has changed his views, but he now appears to be just an atypical social conservative.

I would have liked it if Acteon could have gone down this route, but he found the notion disagreeable. While that's understandable, ultimately he had a choice between compromising on his values or not posting on WrongPlanet, and he chose being aggressively nationalist over being included.

Acteon seemed to be in a really bad place - shouldn't WrongPlanet be trying to help him?

To an extent, yes. I spelled out to Acteon what he needed to do to remain on WrongPlanet, but he prioritised being openly racist ahead of getting help.

There are many users with mental health issues on WrongPlanet. The vast majority are lovely people, and don't post racist content. Allowing someone to post racist content would have the effect of putting off other users. I do believe we've already seen this in action due to our tolerance of far-right users on WrongPlanet, which has led to a big reduction in moderate voices.

Should our rules disallow Type 2 nationalism?

I don't think it would be right for me as a moderator to comment on this too much, but there are good arguments either way.

What did Walrus and Acteon say in their PMs?

After Enviro warned Acteon, he created two threads in "Autism Media Representation". I locked the first, here: viewtopic.php?t=379347

That prompted this PM, entitled "Dictator":

I then responded:

Two comments on this message:

1) Orwell did fight in the Spanish Civil War, but not in WWII - he applied for service but was rejected and instead produced pro-war propaganda.

2) "Treating you fairly hurts your feelings" was an attempt to use his own rhetoric against him. I hoped it would help him look at his behaviour from another perspective. In hindsight it was probably not the right approach.



This, to me, seemed like a clear rejection of my request for him to stop saying racist things. But I still thought we could have a dialogue and come to some sort of understanding.

In response, Acteon sent his final PM to me. It was to a moderately famous "European nationalist" website. And no, it isn't a friendly site calling for pan-European harmony, quite the opposite - most of its articles seem to actual concern the USA. The article in question was one claiming that the word "racism" was invented by Leon Trotsky (strange to invoke Trotsky as a demonic figure after invoking famous Trotskyite George Orwell as a positive figure) and today is used as a way to slander "the opponents of Marxism".

Unfortunately at this point I saw no real prospect of constructive dialogue, or of Acteon choosing to moderate his public expressions of nationalism. This is particularly evidenced by the fact that he has already lost friends and been banned from Twitter for his views. After I locked his thread, he posted another one encouraging users to join a far-right social network.

As much as I would like for Acteon to find a home here, that cannot come at the expense of tolerating racism.