Making it Better: The future of WP

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funeralxempire
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23 Aug 2020, 5:22 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

I don’t condone the use of the N-word with racist intent. I got punched in the face once for using it. Never used it with that intent again.

There are racists in this world—no doubt about it. There are white supremacists, yes.

“All lives matter” could be used with its literal meaning—or it could be a white-supremacist buzzword. It depends on the context.

The term racist is sometimes used too loosely—like Nazi is used too loosely. People who espouse economic systems detrimental to the attainment of those not in the majority are not necessarily racists. They might not have racist intent. But they should be educated as to how their espousal of something like laissez-faire capitalism could block “minority” attainment through the racism of some adherents.

People who are not racists might see the error of their ways. But, if they are called racist when they are not racist, they’ll probably get defensive and become stubborn, resulting in them espousing laissez-faire capitalism even more strongly.

One of the problems is that people who do hold racist views (in the sense of delegitimizing and depriorizting the interests of PoC) will insist that racism isn't their motive whether or not they've understood the disproportionate impacts their policies might have. This is what fuelled the southern strategy; this is how the David Dukes of the world wish to accomplish their goals, by masking them in neutral language that lends plausible deniability so that they can operate more openly. They normalize it.

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Drake
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23 Aug 2020, 5:23 pm

magz wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

Drake wrote:

Don't get caught up in semantics when there's no ill intent.

So, it's fair to call Proud Boys white supremacists? And those who openly support them sympathizers? :wink:

I responded to you in a place that I find more appropriate: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=389340&p=8591113#p8591113

Good idea. I'll follow you over there.

magz
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23 Aug 2020, 5:24 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

It is very interesting that many of the users who are leaping to the defence of the use of the n-word have also been campaigning for a ban on the use of the word “racist”.

The_Walrus wrote:

It is very interesting to me that many of the users today arguing that users should be interpreted charitably have been campaigning for users to be banned based on extraordinarily uncharitable interpretations of their posts.

Take a good hard look at yourselves. I’d love for WrongPlanet to be a place where mistakes are tolerated and we try to be nice to each other, but at the moment you’re extending charity extremely unevenly. This isn’t going to be a popular comment, but I feel morally bound to make it. It’s completely fair to call this white supremacy in action.

I appreciate that not all of you are being toxic, some of you are genuinely being really nice to everyone! But I really do wish some of you would extend the warmth you have towards Sly to people who raise concerns about racism. The last few days have shown a really ugly side of some people I have only ever had respect for, and it’s so disappointing.

I sincerely appreciate those in moderation who have reached out to try to hear my side before reacting harshly because there were deeply hurt feelings. Campaigning to have me banned because the literal truth hurt your feelings and because I stand my ground against pile-ons is bullying. I've never tolerated being bullied no matter the odds, I don't break because I'm not brittle. That's why I've kept saying 'tell the mods, if I'm in the wrong I'll accept the consequences'. Apparently I'm not wrong, deal with it and move on instead of dragging it on in hopes of having me censored.

I hope I never added to campaigning for banning you. The only issue I have with you is following Sly to The Haven. I hope you refrain from this.

I think we got divided into two groups: one gets triggered by Sly's distress, the other gets triggered by lack of sensitivity to racial issues.

I hope we reconcile.

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funeralxempire
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23 Aug 2020, 5:26 pm

magz wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

It is very interesting that many of the users who are leaping to the defence of the use of the n-word have also been campaigning for a ban on the use of the word “racist”.

The_Walrus wrote:

Unfortunately one of the main posters participating in this bullying doesn't allow PMs so I had no other means to directly respond.

kraftiekortie
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23 Aug 2020, 5:26 pm

David Duke is obviously a racist. He’s ex-KKK. The “ex” part is questionable. It is troubling that some people can’t see his obvious racism. And the racism of people of that ilk who talks about “white rights” or whatever. I’m not talking about those idiots.

I can tell a racist a mile away. I’ve been around them all my life.

funeralxempire
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23 Aug 2020, 5:29 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

David Duke is obviously a racist. He’s ex-KKK. It is troubling that some people can’t see his obvious racism. And the racism of people of that ilk who talks about “white rights”

I can tell a racist a mile away. I’ve been around them all my life.

I know you get it, but for people who aren't as familiar with the history of those movements don't realize he was one of the first to discuss moving away from the blatant stuff being their public face, to dress respectfully instead of in Klan regalia and otherwise to normalize themselves and their movement. He's personally tainted but his proteges don't always have the same baggage so they succeed at getting people hooked on white extinction/white rights nonsense, or the economic and political rhetoric that sounds more neutral and they get sucked in.

kraftiekortie
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23 Aug 2020, 5:32 pm

Those people who get sucked in like that are racists.....or are blithering idiots.

They only read what they want to read. Confirmation bias.

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23 Aug 2020, 5:33 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

The first exposure I ever had to David Duke was in 2012, shortly after the election. ArrantPariah said that Duke would be running for the 2016 nomination and posted a very poorly produced video Duke had uploaded pitching himself. I was trying to be generous to people who were against immigration at the time, so naively said that nothing in the video was racist. Oops :oops:

I wonder if any of Duke’s suggested policies have been implemented.

funeralxempire
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23 Aug 2020, 5:34 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

Those people who get sucked in like that are racists.....or are blithering idiots.

They only read what they want to read. Confirmation bias.

And all three of those groups are dangerous but the latter two need helped and need to be made aware of what they're supporting.

Feyokien
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23 Aug 2020, 5:34 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

It is very interesting that many of the users who are leaping to the defence of the use of the n-word have also been campaigning for a ban on the use of the word “racist”.

It is very interesting to me that many of the users today arguing that users should be interpreted charitably have been campaigning for users to be banned based on extraordinarily uncharitable interpretations of their posts.

Take a good hard look at yourselves. I’d love for WrongPlanet to be a place where mistakes are tolerated and we try to be nice to each other, but at the moment you’re extending charity extremely unevenly. This isn’t going to be a popular comment, but I feel morally bound to make it. It’s completely fair to call this white supremacy in action.

I appreciate that not all of you are being toxic, some of you are genuinely being really nice to everyone! But I really do wish some of you would extend the warmth you have towards Sly to people who raise concerns about racism. The last few days have shown a really ugly side of some people I have only ever had respect for, and it’s so disappointing.

That took courage to say Walrus. You've made some very fair assessments.

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23 Aug 2020, 5:37 pm

Quote:

“All lives matter”

This should never be said. I can handle it if it's said in ignorance but once you have been informed, then I will assume ill intention. Autism is no excuse to be willful ignorant and hide it behind "literal." I don't buy it. But if I see someone holding up a sign or posting a picture saying "all lives matter" I will assume ill intention.

Quote:

People who are not racists might see the error of their ways. But, if they are called racist when they are not racist, they’ll probably get defensive and become stubborn, resulting in them espousing laissez-faire capitalism even more staunchly.

This is what they call fragile.

I think people see being called a racist as how people feel about the word fat. You may call someone fat and mean it as a descriptive word but the person gets offended for being called it even though they are indeed fat or don't believe they are.

It has to do with negative connotation.

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kraftiekortie
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23 Aug 2020, 5:39 pm

David Duke is seen as being in the fringes even in conservative parts of Louisiana.

Wolfram87
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23 Aug 2020, 5:40 pm

Isn't Duke the former Grand Dragon Space Wizard, or whatever the top rank is?

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Oh_no_its_Ferris
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23 Aug 2020, 5:40 pm

I just like to point out some of your comments said in the last month Walrus as surely you must be part of this white supremacy in action as well

Quote:

The s**t that people have been posting that was said to Sly - I honestly hadn’t seen any of that. It’s obviously unacceptable and the mangy dog thing should have resulted in a ban.

Quote:

And I’ve never had any trouble with you, Sly.

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23 Aug 2020, 5:42 pm

I promised myself I would not read this thread as I get so riled up.

Basically all people do not understand the experiences of others that do not look like them, think like them, believe like them and live like them.

We are all racist, sexist etc...

But if you are in the group that has the power... that inability to understand the experience of others can be very harmful.

Humans build social groups generally through the feelings of victimization and superiority. You can see this in the way that sly shows insensitivity (superiority) and then acts victimized when people get upset with him (he posts in the haven about how mistreated he is).

So... what we need here is sensitivity for people who are different from us. This is why I avoid calling people racist even though I have people I love deeply who don't look like me and bear the attacks from insensitive people.

I have tried gently to talk with Sly about how his racial insensitivity is similar to what we face in our lives with autism but he really doesn't care. There are lots of people in the politics section who openly attack people with different beliefs and most of them are right wing. This is because the Overton window for the right in the US has moved fully towards authoritarianism.

When anyone points out their behavior... they act all attacked.

I think calling them racially insensitive is better than calling them racist but in the end... they just want to troll... get called out, then go off crying that nobody likes them or they are being attacked. They are unwilling to change.

They are really getting bad in the US (and WP) because they have someone who promotes these views as a leader in the US. I will not get into the stupid argument that DJT is racist (everyone is... he is just virulent and has power)... he certainly promotes division in the US because authoritarians always do that.

I think one of the best ways to improve WP is to not take the bait when they troll us. The best way to get rid of these trolls... or at least chasten them... is to kick DJT's orange ass out of the White House. (for all you American non-trump supporters out there)

I am certainly sick of weak snowflake right winger crying ("WP is so bad... they attacked me and called me and all Trump supporters racist!").. don't get me started on the incels here!

oh... and the N-word is MUCH worse than calling a person racist. A person can not change their skin color but they sure as hell can try to be a decent person who listens to the experiences of people who do not look like them. One or two members think racism doesn't exist (unless you are a white person... then the minorities are racist against you)...lol!

Last edited by envirozentinel on 24 Aug 2020, 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.: keeping to the spirit of WP rules

kraftiekortie
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23 Aug 2020, 5:42 pm

Black lives matter.

All lives matter.

You won’t see me holding up a sign like that.

I believe our ultimate goal is to get rid of racial and ethnic considerations, period.

This will take a long time—but we must progress towards that goal.

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