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Pepe
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17 Nov 2020, 4:49 pm

Fnord wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
It is recently stated WP policy that calling someone a racist is considered purely descriptive and not considered a personal attack. There are no guidelines for calling someone a fascist as far as I know...
In my opinion, they should be treated the same.

• Calling a person fascist/racist/sexist/socialist/whatever should be called out as wrong by a moderator.

• Calling a person's statements fascist/racist/sexist/socialist/whatever should not incur any moderatorial wrath.

Simple.


Just because one is a moderator, doesn't mean one is as smart as me. 8) :mrgreen:

I think your statement ignores some fundamentals, here, one being the question of the competency of the person involved.
Some may have the 'power' to implement their authority, but that doesn't mean that the person has the ability to make an informed, enlightened and objective assessment. 8)

Regarding the second statement, as I have mentioned above, in another post, the general WP ruling embraces the principle of 'attacking' the statements is OK, but not the individual.
I think this should hold true, in what we are discussing here.



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17 Nov 2020, 4:52 pm

magz wrote:
Fnord wrote:
If one person calls you 'ugly', then you can just laugh it off.

If two people call you 'ugly', then maybe you should check your make-up.

If three people call you 'ugly', then maybe you should wear a mask.
These words are very, very dangerous and this thinking puts you personally at risk.


It SCREAMS Groupthink Rulz! EEP! 8O



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17 Nov 2020, 4:54 pm

magz wrote:
It leads me back to the question: what is a modern "fascist"? ...
Wikipedia says "... a form of far-right, authoritarian ultra-nationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy."  The modern-day also mixes in some form of race-based national identity coupled with a denial of science-based facts, and general contempt for anyone who tries to hold the leadership to the same values as the leadership imposes on everyone else.


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17 Nov 2020, 5:10 pm

League_Girl wrote:
So if people keep thinking you are racist or a fascist and you don't think you are, rethink of your choice of words and your ideologies because what you might be saying may be consistent of racism. This is no different than not doing a behavior that is perceived as rude.


Some people embrace a more objective approach to life, and some give their emotional needs a higher priority.
Some people value their personal integrity and credibility, and some have little understanding of their value.

Partisanship embraces a groupthink mentality.
In theory, autistic individuals "should" tend to be more independent people.

If someone, who embraces groupthink, chastises an independent thinker, I might be inclined to give that free-thinker the benefit of the doubt.

Independent thinking is a discipline that takes years to profoundly develop.
It is much easier, and comfy :mrgreen: , to be seduced by the mob mentality.
I'm not that easy. 8)

Yes, I know, I sound like an arrogant biatch. :mrgreen:



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17 Nov 2020, 5:15 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
Fnord wrote:
magz wrote:
Fnord wrote:
If one person calls you 'ugly', then you can just laugh it off.

If two people call you 'ugly', then maybe you should check your make-up.

If three people call you 'ugly', then maybe you should wear a mask.
These words are very, very dangerous and this thinking puts you personally at risk.
Is that a moderatorial judgement against me, or is it a personal observation of what I posted?

There was an old saying along similar lines that went "If someone calls you a 'Jackass', ignore them; if all your friends call you a 'Jackass', go to a mirror and check for ears and a tail; but if the entire village calls you a 'Jackass', it is time to buy a saddle."

It means that the opinions of a few people do not really matter; but that an opinion shared by all (or just the majority) should be examined.


My personal favorite is, "If you smell sh_t everywhere you go, it's time to check your shoes."


This is one I got from a MAD magazine when I was a teenager:
"Eat shite, 10 billion flies can't be wrong." :mrgreen:

Look out, people, don't stand too close to the edge of the flat earth. 8)



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17 Nov 2020, 5:23 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
It is not an insult if it's earned, like for example if someone said "brown people are inferior" then yeah I will call him a fascist.


But is it right to call someone a fascist if they don't embrace fascist ideology? :scratch:
I'm not sure it is, hence the Porpoise of the thread. <squeak> :mrgreen:

If someone calls someone a fascist, it is only reasonable for them the provide evidence to support that statement.
It isn't rocket surgery. 8)

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
It But I have no idea what you're talking about.


We don't have unrealistic expectations for our favourite blobfish. :heart: :mrgreen:



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17 Nov 2020, 5:29 pm

Pepe wrote:
If someone calls someone a fascist, it is only reasonable for them the provide evidence to support that statement.
It isn't rocket surgery. 8)


It also isn't rocket science to read the whole thread since usually when one is called a fascist around here there's good reason only a post or two earlier in the thread. :wink:

Quote:
PPR in a nutshell:

Poster 1: *espouses sympathy for fascist/racist/etc ideology*
Poster 2: You're a fascist/racist/etc.
Poster 1: Prove it! :evil:
Poster 2: :roll:


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17 Nov 2020, 5:33 pm

magz wrote:
It leads me back to the question: what is a modern "fascist"?
What beliefs are required to be seriously qualified as one?
Probably racism would be needed, or other forms of minority-hating. Strong leadership. Imperialism. Disregard for freedoms and democratic mechanisms...

...lemme see...

Putin?


Most people don't seem to delve into in-depth clarification of the parameters, context and definitions of a discussion.
Many people simply jump in,
like a blobfish. :mrgreen:
without considering the various elements involved, yes.

I am *not* "most people". 8)



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17 Nov 2020, 5:42 pm

Fascism is difficult to define, and even people who have read lots of books on politics can struggle to agree. Most people using the word as an insult have a very skimpy idea of what a Fascist is.

You can dodge this problem by calling something Fascistic, meaning it partakes of some of the qualities of it.

"The word "racism" is like ketchup. It can be put on practically anything - and demanding evidence makes you a "racisr"" Thomas Sowell.



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17 Nov 2020, 5:52 pm

Pepe wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
So if people keep thinking you are racist or a fascist and you don't think you are, rethink of your choice of words and your ideologies because what you might be saying may be consistent of racism. This is no different than not doing a behavior that is perceived as rude.


Some people embrace a more objective approach to life, and some give their emotional needs a higher priority.
Some people value their personal integrity and credibility, and some have little understanding of their value.

Partisanship embraces a groupthink mentality.
In theory, autistic individuals "should" tend to be more independent people.

If someone, who embraces groupthink, chastises an independent thinker, I might be inclined to give that free-thinker the benefit of the doubt.

Independent thinking is a discipline that takes years to profoundly develop.
It is much easier, and comfy :mrgreen: , to be seduced by the mob mentality.
I'm not that easy. 8)

Yes, I know, I sound like an arrogant biatch. :mrgreen:


Well I don't think the Holocaust ever happened and I don't think Hitler wasn't as bad as our history makes it out to be. I am such a independent thinker here.

(I am just making a point here and I don't actually believe this. This is what the right ringers think when they talk about free thinking; denying history and science and pretending there is no racism, etc) Free thinking has become a doggy whistle for deny deny deny deny history and racism and science. Then they whine and cry when they are given consequences or are called out on their actions and they hide behind the label "free thinking."

BTW, if someone calls you a fascist, why not ask them how is what you said make you one? You can disagree with their reason when they tell you the reason why. I may ask someone how is what I say offensive and I can also disagree with their reason with why what I said was offensive.


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17 Nov 2020, 6:26 pm

Alexanderplatz wrote:
Fascism is difficult to define, and even people who have read lots of books on politics can struggle to agree. Most people using the word as an insult have a very skimpy idea of what a Fascist is.

You can dodge this problem by calling something Fascistic, meaning it partakes of some of the qualities of it.

"The word "racism" is like ketchup. It can be put on practically anything - and demanding evidence makes you a "racisr"" Thomas Sowell.


So, when confronted, they can't tell us what they mean?
It makes more sense not to use a word you don't understand the meaning of. :wink:

Then why do I get so offended when they call me, or imply, I am a fascist?
Maybe because it is so closely linked to Nazism?
And because it is *meant* as a pejorative. 8)



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17 Nov 2020, 6:38 pm

Alexanderplatz wrote:
Fascism is difficult to define, and even people who have read lots of books on politics can struggle to agree. Most people using the word as an insult have a very skimpy idea of what a Fascist is.


Umberto Eco provides a pretty clear take on what defines fascism.

https://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umb ... scism.html

Quote:


The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”
The obsession with a plot. “Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.”
The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”
Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”
Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”


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17 Nov 2020, 6:48 pm

League_Girl wrote:
Pepe wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
So if people keep thinking you are racist or a fascist and you don't think you are, rethink of your choice of words and your ideologies because what you might be saying may be consistent of racism. This is no different than not doing a behavior that is perceived as rude.


Some people embrace a more objective approach to life, and some give their emotional needs a higher priority.
Some people value their personal integrity and credibility, and some have little understanding of their value.

Partisanship embraces a groupthink mentality.
In theory, autistic individuals "should" tend to be more independent people.

If someone, who embraces groupthink, chastises an independent thinker, I might be inclined to give that free-thinker the benefit of the doubt.

Independent thinking is a discipline that takes years to profoundly develop.
It is much easier, and comfy :mrgreen: , to be seduced by the mob mentality.
I'm not that easy. 8)

Yes, I know, I sound like an arrogant biatch. :mrgreen:


Well I don't think the Holocaust ever happened and I don't think Hitler wasn't as bad as our history makes it out to be. I am such a independent thinker here.


I'm an independent thinker and I think the holocaust did happen and that Hilter brought Germany to disaster.
What happens now? :scratch: :mrgreen:

Independent thinkers have the ability to agree with people who groupthink if groupthink happens to hit on The Truth.
Even a broken clock can be right twice a day, after all.
I am not suggesting groupthink can't have a better hit rate, in regard to The Truth, than that, btw.

I see groupthink largely as the lazy man's/woman's mode of thinking.
It is much more challenging and energy-consuming to utilise critical thinking.

It is also more difficult not being intimidated by a group of people that disagree with you.
I guess you could say I'm quite the skunk. 8)

League_Girl wrote:
(I am just making a point here and I don't actually believe this. This is what the right ringers think when they talk about free thinking; denying history and science and pretending there is no racism, etc) Free thinking has become a doggy whistle for deny deny deny deny history and racism and science. Then they whine and cry when they are given consequences or are called out on their actions and they hide behind the label "free thinking."


But there is more than one definition of "Free thinking".
Only groupthinkers would think this isn't the case. :mrgreen:

League_Girl wrote:
BTW, if someone calls you a fascist, why not ask them how is what you said make you one?

You can disagree with their reason when they tell you the reason why. I may ask someone how is what I say offensive and I can also disagree with their reason with why what I said was offensive.


I do, but they never answer my question, presumably because they use the term as an insult and don't have anything/k to back up that insult. :wink:



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17 Nov 2020, 6:54 pm

Quote:
I do, but they never answer my question, presumably because they use the term as an insult and don't have anything/k to back up that insult. :wink:


So let's not bring up the term "free thinking" then when it comes to talking about racism or fascism or even the words.


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17 Nov 2020, 6:57 pm

Quote:
I'm an independent thinker and I think the holocaust did happen and that Hilter brought Germany to disaster.
What happens now? :scratch: :mrgreen:


Congratulations you are a "group thinker" well done. :wink:


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17 Nov 2020, 7:04 pm

Pepe wrote:
Alexanderplatz wrote:
Fascism is difficult to define, and even people who have read lots of books on politics can struggle to agree. Most people using the word as an insult have a very skimpy idea of what a Fascist is.

You can dodge this problem by calling something Fascistic, meaning it partakes of some of the qualities of it.

"The word "racism" is like ketchup. It can be put on practically anything - and demanding evidence makes you a "racisr"" Thomas Sowell.


So, when confronted, they can't tell us what they mean?
It makes more sense not to use a word you don't understand the meaning of. :wink:

Then why do I get so offended when they call me, or imply, I am a fascist?
Maybe because it is so closely linked to Nazism?
And because it is *meant* as a pejorative. 8)


Here is my advice, if someone just tosses a term at you an have no idea what it means and it is not even related to what you say, that means they looked stupid.

Let's say I mention I like watching childhood shows from my childhood and someone calls me a pedophile, I would think they are an idiot and ask them "do you even know what a pedophile is lmao?"

I also don't have an issue with making fun of stupid people and I would say things like "I am going to pedophile tonight, I am gonna watch Hey Arnold."

Just like how I say "I will enjoy my anti racist agenda here" because someone here claimed I had an agenda lmao so I said "yeah you mean being a anti racist."


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